Learn the concept of the "vanishing point" of a turn. Here's a good guide I found with a quick google search...

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/ride_sm...cornering.html

In short, keep your eye on the vanishing point as it's an important reference to adjust your speed, line and lean for a turn. For example, if the vanishing point is decreasing in distance from your perspective then you need to decrease speed, choose your line, counter steer to increase lean, etc. As far as head position goes, the most common advice I hear is to "kiss the mirror". This helps to put your body into the proper geometry with the bike in a lean to make the turn and it's just like any athletic maneuver where your body (and bike) will follow where you're looking.

Winter is a great time to do some reading to improve your skills. The "A Twist of the Wrist" series is a good start.

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/a...rist-3967.html

Anyway, don't be afraid to ask questions. There's tons of info and people happy to help around here. :thumbup:

 

Winter is a great time to do some reading to improve your skills. The "A Twist of the Wrist" series is a good start.

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/a...rist-3967.html

+1, can't endorse Vol 1 and 2 enough.

 

^+1. I actually prefer Code - A twist...II myself. If You are using or are familiar with methods like braking points, steering points, exit points it is a good rule to always be focusing at least one step past Your actual position.

Some simple rules that worked for me - when You decided Your braking point, move Your focus to search for the steering point (and let Your perhipial sight decide when You reach the braking point). When You have found the steering point, focus as far away at Your curve line as You can manage. As soon as You can and when Your curve line radius is increasing, search for the exit and adjust Your throttle smoothly to get as much exit speed as possible.

As a non racer - adjust Your speed as soon as possible and be sure to be on the throttle during the curve as it will give You a correct weight distribution and help You to avoid a snatchy throttle off-on reaction or loosing Your front during max lean angle. If You are very skilled, You may try to use trail-braking while entering the curve.

On the track, a smooth driving is the best way to get better and faster. Curve speed and exit speed will give You an advantage during the following straight, late braking are only giving You an advantage until You are entering the curve and might cause You to misjudge Your line or curvespeed...

My 2p - Good luck:thumbup:

 

The vanishing point system is how i ride. I have a bad habit of wanting to know about rocks and leaves and oil in my path....so i have to remind myself from time to time to look WAY ahead. My speed is directly related to how far i can see...except in places where there is room to adjust if something goes wrong.

The VP is also a real safe way to ride as fast as you can on the street.

 

One way of telling if you are looking too "closely" and not far enough ahead, is that everything seems to be happening too fast.... you end up having to react to things, almost in panic mode... I had a riding buddy that was doing exactly that and as soon as we had him looking further ahead, everything slowed down for him... His riding became far smoother.

It's strange, but I always wonder if it's the same phenomenon as hitting a Baseball, or playing tennis... The human eye and body can't react quickly enough to alter what it's going to do for the last 30 ft of the path of the ball... Our brains pre-calculate the path and gets our arm/hands into position well before the actual impact of ball on bat/racket. In essence, our brain is "guessing" to the best of it's ability, where the ball will impact the bat/racket..... I feel as if the same thing is happening as we look down the road and through the next set of bends.... we're not there yet, maybe 50 yards away, but our brain has already calculated our line through the NEXT corner, even before we are done with the PRESENT corner we are going through..

 

One way of telling if you are looking too "closely" and not far enough ahead, is that everything seems to be happening too fast.... you end up having to react to things, almost in panic mode... I had a riding buddy that was doing exactly that and as soon as we had him looking further ahead, everything slowed down for him... His riding became far smoother.

It's strange, but I always wonder if it's the same phenomenon as hitting a Baseball, or playing tennis... The human eye and body can't react quickly enough to alter what it's going to do for the last 30 ft of the path of the ball... Our brains pre-calculate the path and gets our arm/hands into position well before the actual impact of ball on bat/racket. In essence, our brain is "guessing" to the best of it's ability, where the ball will impact the bat/racket..... I feel as if the same thing is happening as we look down the road and through the next set of bends.... we're not there yet, maybe 50 yards away, but our brain has already calculated our line through the NEXT corner, even before we are done with the PRESENT corner we are going through..

+1
I occasionaly ride with a newbie who, if left to his own will damn near stare at his front tire, and of course blows his lines and scares himself constantly, I work with him on body position and 'leading with your chin through the corners, which results is less suprises and smoother-faster-happier-safer riding. I like the baseball/tennis analogy too, I often play the oh-so-manly sport of table tennis, or as the Chinese call it, (insert Christopher Walken voiceover here) "Ping Pong" and will look at where the ball is coming off the other paddle, not where it makes contact with mine, your hands seem to have more time to react to the mental calculations faster that way. Same with looking 'though' the turn VS looking 'at' the turn.

 

All good advice above. What Bob says about things varying with speed is very true... I look further ahead the faster I am going since I will travel a much farther distance in the same amount of time as when I'm going much slower... So for my brain to have an adequate amount of time to plan and my body to have an adequate amount of time to imnplement the plan, I need to be looking further ahead.

One of my track coaches uses the concept of bouncing your eyes from braking point, to turn-in point to apex to exit as you work your way through a corner or set of corners. Your eye doesn't actually follow your intended line, it bounces from point to point and the body manipulates the bike into connecting the dots and creating the line from those reference points.

This works really well on a track where you have many opportunities to repeat the same corner over and over within a short amount of time and you can refine each of these point through repetitive practice, thus improving your speed through that section.

For street riding, I find I approach things far more conservatively, but still try to always looks as far ahead as possible to give myself plenty of time to react to what is approaching. Even though I'm not squeezing everything out the bike in terms of braking, lean angle and cornering speed, there are far more obstacles present on the street than on the track and I always want to be looking as far ahead as possible to make a plan for them.

If you are like most other people who make it to the track, you will find that your entire perspective on street riding will change dramatically.

Buy the books and enjoy the reading over the winter...

TripleThreat

 

Ok so the above is a lame lame attempt.. I just want to get a feeling...

So the thing with the two black circles is the bike..
I know you should probably look (GLANCE very briefly) at the red lines directly infront of you to watch for obsticles...etc.
BUT as soon as you do that for a split second I am already looking at the Yellow lines at the end .... I feel this might be TOO far... because from that point I am not even really "seeing" the apex of the corner but I am also not FLYING into the corner either... Should I bee looking at the green/purple lines when I am at the red lines... and then kinds of keep moving forward that way?

I do understand it's probably hard to explain to someone via the internet..lol I just want to make sure I am doing it safe..
For my MSF class I know when I was doing u turns I was completely looking over (just about) my shoulder in which I was making that u turn and naturally moving my head straighter forward as the bike was going the way I wanted it to until it was straight and I could just drive straight..etc.

I have twist of the wrist v1 and 2 that I am going to start reading tomorrow so that's good that they are a very good reference.etc.

-Nigel

 

Lots of good advice here.

There is one major thing wrong with your drawing though. Those coloured areas should be POINTS not lines. You should be aiming to hit a point on the road not just a general area ahead.

I know you should probably look (GLANCE very briefly) at the red lines directly infront of you to watch for obsticles...etc.

You don't look at the scenery while your travelling up towards the corner and then at the last minute glance at your turn in point. You should have been looking at a point in the red area the whole time as you approached the corner. So there is no brief glance.

What I do is as soon as I have exited a corner I'm looking ahead looking for my next turn in point. As soon as I decide on my marker I focus on it and ride straight at it. This gives you plenty of time to spot obstacles etc. I use cats eyes quite a bit for this. I'll try to choose one that, when I hit it, I can see round the corner.

BUT as soon as you do that for a split second I am already looking at the Yellow lines at the end .... I feel this might be TOO far... because from that point I am not even really "seeing" the apex of the corner but I am also not FLYING into the corner either... Should I bee looking at the green/purple lines when I am at the red lines... and then kinds of keep moving forward that way?

Because I'm a bit new to this and I only ride on the road I don't bother with the apex. As soon as I start my turn I start looking for my exit point. Again this is a POINT on the road not some general area. This is where I want to be so I can get a good view of the next corner, usually the middle of my lane. It let the apex take care of itself.

The problem with this though is most of the corners around here are blind. You can't see the exit when you turn in. So I just look as far ahead as possible which I guess is the vanishing point the other guys have been talking about.

Since I have started using this technique I have noticed that I take corners a lot tighter than before. Some times I have to lift the bike to avoid running too close to the inside of the corner. This might be because I'm not picking an apex, or maybe I'm just going too slow now

I know what you mean about looking too far ahead. On the few open corners around here it does feel a bit weird and I feel as though I'm hunting around to find the exit. I get a bit lost in all the open space

 

While you are not looking at the Green and Purple areas for long, my guess is that you are looking there or you wouldn't be able to make the corner flow.

If you feel that your line through a corner is pretty smooth and fluid, then my guess is that you are seeing those points and your brain is making the bike connect the dots with a smooth turn. If however, you find yourself adjusting your lean angle erratically while navigating a corner, then you are not picking up the points and judging your speed and cornering line appropriately. The movement or leaning of the bike from turn-in to apex to exit should be a steady "one piece" motion Gradually leaning in to the maximum lean angle needed to complete the turn for the given speed and line and then gradually leaning the bike back up to being straight up and down. If you are constantly readjusting your lean angle then you don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle put together correctly.

This could caused be any number of reasons: Incorrect reference points that result in the wrong line, incorrect speed for the lean angle you are attempting to carry, different entry speed, etc.

Where you looks is very important in terms of setting the reference points that your brain will use as you negotiate the corner, but that is only one aspect of being smooth. You really just bounce your eyes off these points as you navigate a turn and then use your peripheral vision to work your way through the area based on the reference point your brain picks up when you glance at it (even for a split second).

Once you get to a track day, talk to a control rider and ask them to take you out and show you the proper lines for the track. As your speed increases, these reference points will change, so it is more important that you understand how all of the pieces of effective cornering work together so that you can make adjustments as you progress in your riding skill.

I know that I don't use the same points in "A" group that I did in "B" group, particularly where Braking Point and Turn-In point are concerned. The Apex, while a clearly defined point in a turn, will change depending on traffic and how you are negotiating it in a turn (if you are). Different lines offer different benefits, but you must first learn the ideal line, get used to it, be able to repeat it. Then, you will be able to experiment as you progress.

Most track day organizations do not allow passing in the turns in their beginning group so that you can concentrate on learning the ideal line without fear of someone taking it away from you before you are comfortable riding that close to someone else and having to modify your line at speed. Then they move you to passing only on the outside in the Intermediate group and ask you to allow 6 feet of space between you and the person you are passing. Finally, when you make it to the "A" group, you are free to pass anywhere on the track, but block passing and stuffing are highly discouraged and frowned upon in the track day world. But, I can tell you that I have rubbed elbows with many people in the "A" group at speed in corners. It takes a while to get comfortable with that, but once you have ridden that way, any attempt at riding fast on the street suddenly has no thrill to it...

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but there really is no quick and simple answer to your question. Time on the track and working with control riders will help all of this make sense over time...

Jeff

 

While you are not looking at the Green and Purple areas for long, my guess is that you are looking there or you wouldn't be able to make the corner flow.

If you feel that your line through a corner is pretty smooth and fluid, then my guess is that you are seeing those points and your brain is making the bike connect the dots with a smooth turn. If however, you find yourself adjusting your lean angle erratically while navigating a corner, then you are not picking up the points and judging your speed and cornering line appropriately. The movement or leaning of the bike from turn-in to apex to exit should be a steady "one piece" motion Gradually leaning in to the maximum lean angle needed to complete the turn for the given speed and line and then gradually leaning the bike back up to being straight up and down. If you are constantly readjusting your lean angle then you don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle put together correctly.

This could caused be any number of reasons: Incorrect reference points that result in the wrong line, incorrect speed for the lean angle you are attempting to carry, different entry speed, etc.

Where you looks is very important in terms of setting the reference points that your brain will use as you negotiate the corner, but that is only one aspect of being smooth. You really just bounce your eyes off these points as you navigate a turn and then use your peripheral vision to work your way through the area based on the reference point your brain picks up when you glance at it (even for a split second).

Once you get to a track day, talk to a control rider and ask them to take you out and show you the proper lines for the track. As your speed increases, these reference points will change, so it is more important that you understand how all of the pieces of effective cornering work together so that you can make adjustments as you progress in your riding skill.

I know that I don't use the same points in "A" group that I did in "B" group, particularly where Braking Point and Turn-In point are concerned. The Apex, while a clearly defined point in a turn, will change depending on traffic and how you are negotiating it in a turn (if you are). Different lines offer different benefits, but you must first learn the ideal line, get used to it, be able to repeat it. Then, you will be able to experiment as you progress.

Most track day organizations do not allow passing in the turns in their beginning group so that you can concentrate on learning the ideal line without fear of someone taking it away from you before you are comfortable riding that close to someone else and having to modify your line at speed. Then they move you to passing only on the outside in the Intermediate group and ask you to allow 6 feet of space between you and the person you are passing. Finally, when you make it to the "A" group, you are free to pass anywhere on the track, but block passing and stuffing are highly discouraged and frowned upon in the track day world. But, I can tell you that I have rubbed elbows with many people in the "A" group at speed in corners. It takes a while to get comfortable with that, but once you have ridden that way, any attempt at riding fast on the street suddenly has no thrill to it...

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but there really is no quick and simple answer to your question. Time on the track and working with control riders will help all of this make sense over time...

Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you for that.

Actually I thank everyone so far because it's great!

I think it is going to be easier to do the looking through the turn when on the track because there aren't obstickles like there are on the normal road and or cars, trucks..etc.

I think that's my main question as I don't think I had any problems driving on the street but I had some people say "lean" that bike over when they looked at my rear tired kind of chuckling in a nice way... but I also feel that I am not rushing things so perhaps I am just trying to learn before I am actually ready or comfortable to do it as far as leaning the bike over more.... I don't FLY into the corners because I dont' want to get into that situation where me squeezing the front brake causes a high side/low side...etc.

-Nigel

 

Jeff made a ton of good points. It's awesome that we get to pick the brains of these guys with all this experience. As a noob to the track this last season, I might be able to give you some, well, noob advice.

It was very easy to forget to look through the corner. I also read the books, practiced the stuff in parking lots, etc... I felt that I had a great first season, but it was hard to remember all those basics. Basically, just remember that you will forget, and keep it in your mind alot. I had my best corners when I felt like I was looking waaaaaaay too far ahead and had my worst corners when (even though I knew not to) I was looking at the ground in front of me.

As far as a reference to your sweet drawing.... the last set of lines are the place to look. By the time your bike is where you placed it in the drawing, there isn't much you can do to change its path within the earlier sets of lines by looking at them, but you might be able to make that corner smoother by looking at the end of the corner. Look all the way through that corner and have at it.

good luck,
jp

 

Like Jeff said, you supposed to use your peripheral vision, you already supposed to know what's in the other areas before you get there and you go by them using your peripherla vision and you should be using what's called wide vision in twist of the wrist. It takes a while to get used to it and it takes very long time to train it. But once you start using it's a great thing, it slows everything down. I even use it when commuting and it's mostly you use your brain to pick objects in your vision, without glancing or looking at them.

To give you example, when you are waiting at traffic lights, do you look directly at the light or do you use your peripheral vision. I'm up to the stage when I use my peripheral vision to notice if the traffic lights for the opposite traffic have changed. It took me a while to train my brain to get to this, but it's a very useful skill. Imagine a big billboard which you scan, process and absorb the information very fast with your brain. It's much faster to do it that way than to move your eyes around.

 

I'm not a book reader, are there any good videos that put you in the drivers seat and teach these techniques, terms, ect. ? Watching is far more effective for me than reading.

Neanderthal

 

I'm not a book reader, are there any good videos that put you in the drivers seat and teach these techniques, terms, ect. ? Watching is far more effective for me than reading.

Neanderthal

If you're having trouble sleeping, the Twist of the Wrist video is an incredible help...if you're looking to learn some riding techniques, you have to really focus to have any chance of following it. I personally haven't found any instructional videos that help.

An alternative if you're going to one of the better known tracks is to buy or rent a racing game featuring that particular track. It helps immensely to know what to expect when trying to put corners together.

Also, mid way through your track day, take a moment to mentally run a lap. If there's certain sections that you can't immediately picture when you do this, focus on getting points figured out for those corners. If you know where you're going, it's a lot easier to get there faster...

 

From my own experience, I always thought I was looking far enough ahead but on closer analyses, I was fixating on my braking point, turn in point and only then looking into the corner. I improved my lap times by always looking at my vanishing point. If you do, your braking and turn in points will happen naturally because of what you see ahead.

 

Quite simply, and based on track riding:

Look towards the apex when you are entering the turn.

Look toward the exit when you are at the apex.

On the street, if apexes and exit points are blocked, just look as far around the corner as is visible...

 

Generalizations will hurt you.

Devilfish couldn't have said it better. I'll elaborate on one way to accomplish this task. Imagine we're coming down a straight and up ahead is the turn. Dot out an imaginary line before you, as your mind traces this line you will notice defects or obstacles in the road. Follow the line (it's obviously a curve but you've broken it up into tiny line segments, thank you Newton) out as far as you can clear the road visually. When it comes time to enter the turn you should have visually cleared a portion, if not all of it already. While following your line through the turn continue to dot out ahead of you and follow the trail you've mentally set in place. As the turn opens up you'll find you're able to focus/clear an area ahead of you quicker than you did through the turn, at this time, roll on that baby! :cool2:
Also, some have made some wonderful generalizations about how and when to apply the throttle (or brake) during this turning process but haven't told you how much and more importantly, the slope of the turn they're imagining that you're taking. I suggest you become educated on the concept of center of gravity, and suspension naturally, in order to know when this advice applies, and of course, when it does not. Ride safe!:thumbsup: