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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just sold my PCIII and bought a TuneECU cable. Looking to start a thread addressing the pros and cons of both tuning options.

I have a 100% stock bike. The reason why I sold my PCIII is not because I wasn't impressed with the hardware, but because of the lack of tunes available for a stock bike. There are a total of 2 different tunes available, and of those tunes, there are no explanations, no dyno charts, nothing to really tell me why I should use them, or what the benefits are.

I don't really plan on making any other major modifications to the bike.

Which is why I wanted to give the TuneECU a shot. I looked and there are a few more tunes available for a stock bike. Plus, that lets you adjust more paramaters than the PCIII, such as timing, speedo calibration, idle RPM, etc. etc.

I'm sure the PCIII has lots of added benefits, such as the quick shifter, ability to expand to extra sensors, the display module, but for my application, I don't need all that. I just want to load a tune that has optimized fuel and spark settings for a stock bike.

What do you all think?

Homer
 

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I think you made the right choice. If you were going to dyno tune your bike most shops use a PCIII. There are some that will be willing to work with Tuneboy or TuneECU. Its tedious, but more accurate and more specific even with % of throttle opening, etc.

Unless you're a racer or hardcore trackrider, then you may benefit with a PCIII to put on a quickshifter
 

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They both have pros and cons as pointed out. Really depends on what your looking for? TuneECU has lots of options but is hard to find anyone that can use it (on a dyno). PC has the option of a plug a play quickshifter which is really nice and is widely used so it's easy to find dyno tuners for it.

Your really going to be limited in your choice of tunes for a stock bike either way. Not really much benifit to be gained and not many people dyno tune a completly stock bike.

What you are really looking for is a custom tune for your bike. In that case I would have said keep the PC and have it dynoed. That would have given you the best possible tune.


.
 

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But if he has the new 675 (>2009) he can use the original quickshifter pluged directly to the original ECU. Can´t he?
Yes, but the 06' - 08' bikes can't. No need for a QS on the street anyway, just pointing out the differences.
 

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I've got a speed triple with a tuneboy and a 675 using the tune ecu... and I've got to say that the tune ecu is much easier app/setup/install etc.. I understand that with the tuneboy you can work magic however, to date my vote still goes for the tuneecu product...
 

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A power Commander or Bazzaz Z-FI have two advantages:
1 - More shops will use them, or have experience using them, to tune a bike. This one can be very important.
2 - Live mapping. You can alter mapping with the engine loaded and running. This saves time.

Disadvantages:
Cost.
Reliability.
Piggy-back unit that alters injector openings simply by being connected. Fueling is simply intercepted and the opening time lengthened or shortened.
No ignition advance alterations for many models - added cost for those that are available.
No rev or speed limit alterations.
No MAP/TPS priority alterations for fuel or ignition.
No per gear alterations.
No differentiation of MAP and TPS based fueling or ignition.
No diagnostics.
No speedometer correction.
No control of outputs - SAI, air valves, exhaust throttle, etc.


I can keep on going, but this should help.
 

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Sweet! I was just picking tooble's brain about this a few days ago.

A question. Sorry I'm really not familiar with tuning other than how PC3s plug in. How much should you expect to pay to dyno and create a custom-ish tune for one bike? Would they charge much more for a tuneecu than pC? And is it possible to screw up?
 

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Sweet! I was just picking tooble's brain about this a few days ago.

A question. Sorry I'm really not familiar with tuning other than how PC3s plug in. How much should you expect to pay to dyno and create a custom-ish tune for one bike? Would they charge much more for a tuneecu than pC? And is it possible to screw up?
The thing is that most shops the "tune" using PCIIIs aren't really tuners. They hook up your bike, do three pulls and a let the PCIII make all of the AFR corrections....because that is all it can really do. That is far from a true tune.....and if you ask them to DO a real tune, usually if the shop doesn't also happen to run a race team they are going to look at you, chuckle, and sent you away.

Power-Tripp can tell you how he does it.....but its going to take more than three pulls.

Basically you do a base pull, note where you are lean and rich with the afr and check the data logging for any ping.

Then it gets hairy, you pick an area, advance your timing and a do a pull, check ping, check afr, adjust accordingly. Its also more trick now because you use different settings for cruise (part throttle) and loaded (full throttle) so both need to be addressed.

Also, if you ever have a guy say he's doing a "custom tune" and doesn't require that you let him ride the bike afterward, go somewhere else. Dynoes will give you details, but there can still be strange behavior that doesn't appear on the charts.

The idea in board strokes, is to get as much ignition advance as possible without pinging and at the desired afr (usually the low 13:1 range) this is where you can tune to specific fuels. Since higher octanes are more resistant to pre-ignition and light slower to realize real power gains with high octane fuel you need to adjust your ignition trim to reflect. Issue there being if you tune for 93 octane you have to run 93 octane or risk damage from excessive pinging.

As far as price $200-$300 for a standard three pull PCIII tune is about the usual range.....if you can find anyone that will work with Tuneboy/TuneEcu let me know. I want to talk to them also.

I don't know about around here, but in New Mexico I had a shop that would let me rent their dyno for $80 and hour and I would bring my own gear and start playing around.
 

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Unfortunately, mapping detail varies from shop to shop, and operator to operator. The quaity of the work depends on the users experience and knowledge. Some shops only understand mapping with piggy-back units, while others do work with full blown race engine management systems with data logging (much more advanced than "race kit" ECUs). For the latter, mapping with TuneEdit/TuneECU is a walk in the park.

Going through all tables and settings and optimizing them takes time.

Mapping fuel with a PC3/5 or Bazzaz takes 2 hours (an ignition module adds more time), tuning with TuneEdit (TuneBoy) or TuneECU takes 4 hours plus. Mapping from scratch with Motec, EFI Technology, Link/ViPec, etc. takes days.

I've used Dynojet dynos since the first models, now I own an eddy-current dyno that offers much more accuracy, and lets me fully map stock an aftermarket race ECUs for TPS and MAP based tables. You cannot do this with an inertia only dyno.

While I still use wideband Lambda, I primarily use a 5-gas exhaust gas analyzer for accuracy and considerably more information.

Since I can hold an engine at any specific rpm and throttle opening, I can map each cell in each table to best output. Then sweep for transient response and acceleration compensation.

Ignition advance is likely one of the most misunderstood aspects of mapping. I an at the Indy Deaer Expo this weekend, but look for an article on mapping and ignition advance on our site (a work in progress) in two weeks - when we fully update the site.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As far as the software is concerned, the TuneECU software is far superior to that of the PCIII. I just got my cable in the mail yesterday and had the chance to mess with it. It let's me adjust things like the idle speed, fan thermostat temp, and other little details that would be impossible with the PCIII.

I haven't noticed much of a difference in the seat of the pants power that either one of the tunes from the PCIII or TuneECU, but I have a stock bike. There are, however, at least 3 or 4 tunes I have found for my application, whereas there are only 2 tunes available for the PCIII.

So far, im impressed. Except for the dead battery I had after leaving the ignition on too long while loading a tune which scared the hell out of me. But that's my own damn fault.

Thanks for the great insight!
 

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Tripped1;

I am not so sure i can agre with you on the 3 pulls and your done dyno tune.
given i have never taken my bikes to professional race tuners, and it was far from a run the rpm at given RPM/LOAD and all the tuning was done by the Computer.
given with my kawasaki zx6r the KIT ECU was used for some adjustments and then the PCIII for the additional fueling...

I know there are tons of systems that far surpass the PCIII systems, but of course for simplicity and some more than better fuleing and finding some additional power the PowerCommander is a simple easy to use tool.

i am sure once home to Oregon i will use the TUNE ECU & PCIII to make the best fo what i can out fo the bike.
 

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Tripped1;

I am not so sure i can agre with you on the 3 pulls and your done dyno tune.
given i have never taken my bikes to professional race tuners, and it was far from a run the rpm at given RPM/LOAD and all the tuning was done by the Computer.
given with my kawasaki zx6r the KIT ECU was used for some adjustments and then the PCIII for the additional fueling...

I know there are tons of systems that far surpass the PCIII systems, but of course for simplicity and some more than better fuleing and finding some additional power the PowerCommander is a simple easy to use tool.

i am sure once home to Oregon i will use the TUNE ECU & PCIII to make the best fo what i can out fo the bike.
No its the simple capability,

PCIII can ONLY control fueling, period, that is it. It sits between the ECU and the injectors and intercepts and modifies the injector pulse. It can't control spark, and that is a pretty huge thing particularly if you are playing with cam timing.

Likewise it is also ill equipped to deal with Klehien fuel injections that have TWO stage maps, there is a curve for loaded/full throttle and a curve for cruise/part throttle. PCIIIs have NO means to account for this.

So a PC3 is GREAT if you are trying to correct for a after market filter and a slip with an older FI (My 2000 Sagem injected Speed Triple for instance) but what you get from the "computer tuning" isn't really a tune, its an AFR correction.

That being said I can't use a PCIII on my Speed Triple either because I have the cams advanced 5* a piece and had to spend a day and a half tincking around with the spark curves to get it right. When last time I dynoed it the bike with 65,000 miles on the motor made 118hp at the wheel.....with a 127hp motor........at 5,250 feet above sea level:biggrinjester:
 

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Very aware of the differences and which does what, big thing is the simplicity factor and how much one is willling to spend to get good fueling.
the PCIII or newer version with ginition module allows for the timing advances, but once again all piggyback stuff.

I totally agree there are better systems out there than bazazz or Powercommander, but for simplicity and 99% of people out there the PC's & bazazz are more than adequate.

going to get the Tune ECU and use the PCIII as a simple to adjust fueling tune.
mainly want the exup removed and fallper gone with no lights, as well as add in some timing.
 

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Very aware of the differences and which does what, big thing is the simplicity factor and how much one is willling to spend to get good fueling.
the PCIII or newer version with ginition module allows for the timing advances, but once again all piggyback stuff.

I totally agree there are better systems out there than bazazz or Powercommander, but for simplicity and 99% of people out there the PC's & bazazz are more than adequate.

going to get the Tune ECU and use the PCIII as a simple to adjust fueling tune.
mainly want the exup removed and fallper gone with no lights, as well as add in some timing.
I don't really see the point, if you have the software (assuming you have a PCIII USB) to display the map you can simply check out the PCIII map and transpose the differences onto the ECU with Tune ECU. Again, the PCIII can not account for part throttle operation, the PCIII maps almost universally only apply to the full throttle curve.

Of if you find someone that rents dyno time you can do it yourself. Its the putzing around with spark that takes forever. Usually fueling is pretty fast.
 

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I totally agree there are better systems out there than bazazz or Powercommander, but for simplicity and 99% of people out there the PC's & bazazz are more than adequate.

going to get the Tune ECU and use the PCIII as a simple to adjust fueling tune.
mainly want the exup removed and fallper gone with no lights, as well as add in some timing.
This sounds ike a good plan for your needs.

...Again, the PCIII can not account for part throttle operation, the PCIII maps almost universally only apply to the full throttle curve.
Power Commanders and Bazzaz Z-Fi both work for part throttle operation from 0-100% throttle. The software for them is free, just download and take a look.
 

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This sounds ike a good plan for your needs.

Power Commanders and Bazzaz Z-Fi both work for part throttle operation from 0-100% throttle. The software for them is free, just download and take a look.
Oh wow that's new.

Admittedly I haven't had a PCIII since 2002 when I bought the Speed Triple.....and I never mentioned Bazzaz because I have never seen one in the wild.
 
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