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post #1 of 14 Old 04-29-18, 19:01 Thread Starter
ducdiver
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Rain tire sizes

After riding the recent Pacific raceways track day in monsoon rains with Q3s I've started looking at getting rain tires. Why is it that 180/55 doesn't seem to be available for the rear? Am i missing somthing or is there a reason to move to a bigger rear tire in the wet?

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post #2 of 14 Old 04-29-18, 20:22
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It's funny, all my arguments against a 190 rear for dry riding go out the window in the wet - you'll have slower turn-in (which helps smoothness) and a bigger contact patch when leaned over. I only have experience with Pirelli wets, but I know the 190/60 rear fits our bike no problem.

However, race wets are expensive, finicky about set-up and will wear in a session if it's not totally wet. If you're riding at anything short of expert pace, you should consider going with a set of Michelin Road 5's with a 180 rear. They'll do it all, including keep up with anybody in the intermediate group in the wet or dry. I'm trying to wear down my current set of Road 4's so I can get the 5.
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post #3 of 14 Old 04-29-18, 23:28 Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info buddy. Its hard to watch someone come ripping round the outside , knee just off the deck while your just trying to keep it upright. I wont get caught again at a wet track day without the right tires. Just out of curiosity, what tires are you using these days in the dry?
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post #4 of 14 Old 04-29-18, 23:36
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Pirelli Supercorsa slicks, 180/60 SC3 rear and an SC2 front. One set gets me through some sprint races and a few track days with no complaints. Warmers are recommended but not necessary.
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post #5 of 14 Old 04-29-18, 23:41 Thread Starter
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Thanks, good to know
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post #6 of 14 Old 04-30-18, 03:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGFChapin View Post
If you're riding at anything short of expert pace, you should consider going with a set of Michelin Road 5's with a 180 rear. They'll do it all, including keep up with anybody in the intermediate group in the wet or dry.
From your experience which scenario in the graph below would you say best describes the performance of the three most usual tyre "genres" (purely track-oriented, dual purpose, and purely road oriented). I'm a bit at a loss and tyres are too expensive for me to make light-hearted experiments. The "x" axis is actually a temperature axis but instead of giving actual temperatures, I used types of riding because that's what determines tyre temperatures in the real world and ultimately that's what is important to me as I mostly do canyoning instead of track days. Both scenarios are strictly for dry riding.
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post #7 of 14 Old 04-30-18, 09:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGFChapin View Post
It's funny, all my arguments against a 190 rear for dry riding go out the window in the wet - you'll have slower turn-in (which helps smoothness) and a bigger contact patch when leaned over. I only have experience with Pirelli wets, but I know the 190/60 rear fits our bike no problem.

However, race wets are expensive, finicky about set-up and will wear in a session if it's not totally wet. If you're riding at anything short of expert pace, you should consider going with a set of Michelin Road 5's with a 180 rear. They'll do it all, including keep up with anybody in the intermediate group in the wet or dry. I'm trying to wear down my current set of Road 4's so I can get the 5.
I totally agree with you on not going with race wets. But I think Pirelli Rosso III is also a good alternative. I did 3 track days with Pilot Road 4s in Greece last year. And even though wet and cold weather performance of the Pilot Road 4s are excellent on the road, it's terrible on a very hot day. The rear tyre tends to loose grip once the tyre temp is above 90C (194F) on a very hot day (40C+ or 104F+).
This happened to me on track in Megara and Serres Racing Circuits in Greece last year. Megara in Athens was extremely hot even in the morning on that day, so the Pilot Road 4 rear felt mushy from the start and started loosing grip in the very first session. The next weekend it rained in Serres in the morning, and the weather was around 20C (68F) or so and Pilot Road 4s were great on the wet track. But once the sun came up, the track dried up and became hot, the rear tyre started loosing grip again. So guess it also depends on which climate you live in and I'd say Pilot Road 4s are for Germany weather :)
Another thing that I don't like about the Pilot Road 4 is that it has a soft carcass and the center is very flat compared to the Rosso III, which requires more effort to perform quick turns, especially when the tyre pressure is lowered for track use. Well it's a touring tyre after all. The shape of the Rosso III is the same as the Rosso Corsas so it's more pointy shaped with stronger carcass and more suitable for track day riding IMO.

I haven't tried the Pilot Road 5s so cannot comment on them. Received good comments on them for canyon riding from buddies though. So looking fwd to your comments on wet track performance of the Road 5s.

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Last edited by Hooligaz675; 04-30-18 at 09:55.
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post #8 of 14 Old 04-30-18, 09:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmablaster View Post
From your experience which scenario in the graph below would you say best describes the performance of the three most usual tyre "genres" (purely track-oriented, dual purpose, and purely road oriented). I'm a bit at a loss and tyres are too expensive for me to make light-hearted experiments. The "x" axis is actually a temperature axis but instead of giving actual temperatures, I used types of riding because that's what determines tyre temperatures in the real world and ultimately that's what is important to me as I mostly do canyoning instead of track days. Both scenarios are strictly for dry riding.
I think it's also important which zones of the tyres you're using the most, and the compound of that zone. On the track you use the shoulders of the tyres closer to the edge the most. On canyon riding you don't use the shoulders that much, but the zone next to it (between the Shoulder and the Center, as shown in the Rosso Corsa II video below). So I think Pirelli did a good job with the new Rosso Corsa II using a race profile with multiple compounds for different zones.
They used 100% Carbon Black on the shoulders of both the front and rear for track riding.
100% silica in the center of the front tyre.
75% Silica and 25% Carbon Black in the center of the rear tyre for longevity.
100% Silica in the zone between center and the shoulder. (For canyon riding ;) )

PIRELLI DIABLO ROSSO CORSA II - technical details video

So I think Rosso Corsa 2 is what you've been looking for too buddy ;)

I'm planning to get Rosso Corsa IIs pretty soon. And Pilot Road 5 or Rosso IIIs for the next winter.

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post #9 of 14 Old 04-30-18, 12:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmablaster View Post
From your experience which scenario in the graph below would you say best describes the performance of the three most usual tyre "genres" (purely track-oriented, dual purpose, and purely road oriented). I'm a bit at a loss and tyres are too expensive for me to make light-hearted experiments. The "x" axis is actually a temperature axis but instead of giving actual temperatures, I used types of riding because that's what determines tyre temperatures in the real world and ultimately that's what is important to me as I mostly do canyoning instead of track days. Both scenarios are strictly for dry riding.
Probably closer to scenario 2, although it also depends on ambient temps, as well as tire temps. Race tires have zero grip when they're cold, even if it's 40C out. If you use tire warmers, they still have phenomenal dry grip even if the track is freezing cold. Road tires have a very flat grip curve regardless of temperature, but max grip will be lower as you've already figured out. If you plan to never ride on the track in the rain, a "hypersport" tire is probably the way to go - S21, M7RR etc. They're nearly sticky enough for an expert race pace, but they'll still get you home if you get caught out in the rain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooligaz675 View Post
I totally agree with you on not going with race wets. But I think Pirelli Rosso III is also a good alternative. I did 3 track days with Pilot Road 4s in Greece last year.
The Road 4's are nothing like the new 5's. I've heard the same feedback as you and I don't intend on taking the 4's on my VFR to the track. I spoke with a Michelin rep just last week, and he says the Road 5 has more dry grip than a Pilot Power 2CT. That blew my mind. A decade ago, the 2CT was my go-to track day tire. I probably did 30 track days on 3 sets of them, eventually riding them in the advanced group. To think I could do the same on rubber that has better wet grip than a Road 4 shows just how far tire technology has come in so little time.

I've just about finished off the Rosso II's on my R3. I mostly commuted with them, but I also did 2 track days and they're a true do-it-all tire. Granted we're only talking about 35 horsepower, but my lap times were limited by ground clearance and not by the tires. I have a brand new set of Rosso III's that I'll mount in the next couple weeks, and I'm expecting more of the same. They get my vote for your needs.
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post #10 of 14 Old 04-30-18, 15:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGFChapin View Post
The Road 4's are nothing like the new 5's. I've heard the same feedback as you and I don't intend on taking the 4's on my VFR to the track. I spoke with a Michelin rep just last week, and he says the Road 5 has more dry grip than a Pilot Power 2CT. That blew my mind. A decade ago, the 2CT was my go-to track day tire. I probably did 30 track days on 3 sets of them, eventually riding them in the advanced group. To think I could do the same on rubber that has better wet grip than a Road 4 shows just how far tire technology has come in so little time.

I've just about finished off the Rosso II's on my R3. I mostly commuted with them, but I also did 2 track days and they're a true do-it-all tire. Granted we're only talking about 35 horsepower, but my lap times were limited by ground clearance and not by the tires. I have a brand new set of Rosso III's that I'll mount in the next couple weeks, and I'm expecting more of the same. They get my vote for your needs.
Power 2CT is still a great tire IMO, and if the Road 5 has more dry grip than the 2CT then it's totally mind blowing for sure. The profile of the Road 5 is more aggressive compared to the Road 4 too.

I think you're going to be more happy with the Rosso IIIs than the Rosso IIs.

I'm definitely going to try the new Rosso Corsa IIs pretty soon. Then will decide whether to get Road 5 or Rosso III after the summer. So I have plenty of time to decide.

I'll also report back on the performance of the Rosso Corsa IIs.

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Last edited by Hooligaz675; 04-30-18 at 15:50.
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