Triumph 675 Forums banner

Reference Points (comments appreciated)

9K views 32 replies 15 participants last post by  5axis 
#1 ·
So i'm trying to improve my riding for next season without being able to be on track until next May (Gotta Love New England).

So basically I've decided to get faster at the following tracks
Loudon (NHMS) (career best of 1:24:57, fast guys running 1:11s) and Thompson (Conn) (not sure my fastest lap) I'm going to need to lock down some better reference points. (work on turning harder, on the gas sooner, braking deeper on track but need to work on something over the long winter)

so i'll start by asking how I go about getting better reference points. I have some at thompson and a few at loudon. Need a whole bunch more than then need to reduce them down to key points etc.

So basically I'm asking should i be watching my own videos and picking out objects to use (think marker boards, camera stations, chimneys, pavement abnormalities) Or should i be using faster riders footage to see where they are pointing there machines and try to adjust my reference points to that?

So anybody want to get started??
 
#2 ·
Using other people's reference points is an OK place to start, but you'll quickly shift away from them either because you're slower, faster or take that turn differently. Using your own videos would be ideal, as long as the camera is at the same height as your eyes.

My vision is so bad I have a really hard time picking out exit markers, which are arguably the most important. I use mental timing instead, so I know how long after I hit the apex I need to wait before I get on the gas & pick the bike up. Tough to get the timing right if I'm following a slower rider and you need to know a track really well to begin with, but it works for me when I'm riding at pace.
 
#3 ·
What's worked for me on track is finding my reference points such as brake markers and braking just a little later each lap until I can't brake comfortably. Usually just blow my line. If you watch your videos you should be able to tell where you are breaking early and getting on the gas too late out of the corner. Granted this all depends upon the machine you're riding. You can watch other peoples videos to get an idea of what is possible however it's not always easy to tell what everyone is doing on a motorcycle unless you can see hands etc. If you're watching someone come into a corner on a 1000cc motorcycle and you're on a 600 you'll probably be braking a little later as you won't be going into the corner as fast as they are. There are a ton of variables.
 
#4 ·
Keep the replies coming this is good stuff. :thumbsup:

Of the days i've done this summer (about 8 total I think) I tried this approach of finding a brake marker and then trying to go a little deeper, among other things.

There's a few problems when I try this approach currently.
I can pick an arbrituary point at which to apply the brakes, however like you mentioned its a factor of speed (which is dictacted a few corners or the corner before, not to mention corner type, apex (late or early, etc). So just picking points to brake didn't really work for me. I'd be on the brakes with enough time to be completely stopped before turn, then push it a little and find myself lost (hunting) without a clear plan for the apex and end of the turn. (which might be why when you brake later you end up blowing the corners?)

I'm on my 675 07, so basically my lines are those of most middle weight bikes out there.

From my race school last summer I'm pretty convienced that is only 1 fastest way around the track (without anybody slowing you down). However, if i'm not matching my line around the track with some constant reference points i'm all over the place. And therefore can't really focus on being on the gas sooner or brakes later etc.

Also if i don't have points at the horzion to keep my focus i become short sighted and feel like i'm going too fast for a set corner (even though i'm going way slower than the fast guys on similar equipment).

That's why i'm trying to get better reference points.

Again, great advice and keep it coming.
 
#6 ·
If you can't find good braking markers on your own, the absolute best way to learn is to follow someone slightly faster and pay attention to where they brake. It's a little tougher on the track where (hopefully) nobody has brake lights, but just like in poker, everyone has a "tell." Some guys stick their knee out, some sit up a little, some downshift. Make a friend, ask him for a tow and ask lots of questions after.

]From my race school last summer I'm pretty convienced that is only 1 fastest way around the track (without anybody slowing you down). However, if i'm not matching my line around the track with some constant reference points i'm all over the place. And therefore can't really focus on being on the gas sooner or brakes later etc.
Get rid of this thought. There isn't "one line," otherwise you wouldn't see any passing during expert-level races; all those guys are at the limit and setting lap records, but they still get around each other.

Learn your track(s) well enough to ride with your eyes closed. Ride at less than 100% of your max speed and work on hitting the same markers on the same line for an entire session. Gradually increase the pace, until you can maintain that same line at 100%. At that point, you should still be able to shift your line a little to make a pass. If you've chosen good reference points, they'll still work if you're a foot to the right or left.
 
#5 ·
I highly recommend Keith Code's method. Don't watch videos. Draw the track map from your own memory, the way you see it in your head. Then draw YOUR line. add in all of the reference points (roll-off, shift, brakes on, tip in, brakes off, throttle cracked, wide open throttle) that you are CURRENTLY using and can see in your mental map.

This takes a long time, and it's not really important that it looks just like the actual track. Take a step back and consider your mental map as it looks on paper. Are there any big holes where you don't have reference points? Any big innacurracies? Those are the places you start finding reference points NEXT season. Track walks are waaaay better than videos. As are some slow laps around the perimeter of the pavement, both inside and outside edges.
 
#7 ·
Again thanks for the replies guys, I'm not trying to argue just trying to digest what seemed to make sense to me when i heard it and making sure i'm not misunderstanding.

Agreed, you can get around the track fast off an ideal perfect line. However that said if you are me and not riding a consistent line around the track how can you ever reel it in to fine tune things. I find myself being in two different places in a few laps going around the same turn. In a race that's ideal to pace, at my pace its not. (its evident from friends (instructors) whom follow me and from my pictures from trackside photography). I'm clearly all over the place.

As a side note we were cautioned not to use other peoples braking points. (as a concrete reference as where to brake). Basically the idea was you should be developing the brake marker on your own so you don't get stuck in the "I need to brake here mentality, since so and so told me too." (basically making so if you change bikes or such you don't have anything stuck in your mind as I must brake here since you might be going way slower or way faster).

I agree that recording the laps from memory is a great starting point. I've tried to do this a few times after sessions this summer and always find myself getting distracted. I'll have to make time for that this winter.

Also i find myself with no clear goals for day. I want to get faster just isn't specific enough for me to feel an improvement was made. And that needs to get corrected if i'm going to get better with limited time to invest. 20 minutes for 7 or 8 sessions with weeks in between make it hard to get this stuff ingrained.

Keith Codes (soft science of road racing) provides a good point about doing the memory aspect of reference points. I fall into the trap of seeing the track like a movie in my mind, however the missing parts are when i'm reacting not thinking ahead, so there are plenty of holes). The book breaks it down into reacting and planning ahead, you can only think or react, unless you have good reference points and such with your plan, then the reaction won't distract you as much. I'm completely butchering what the book says but that's kinda the main theme in the first few chapters anyway.

Thanks again guys. I know that the key to being faster is getting more seat time and practicing with slightly faster riders and such. But over the winter i want to be on target for improvement.

Just FYI i've done a few track walks at loudon, definitely helps with the reference points, but on the bike I'm still short sighted and lose track of myself. Basically I need focus on the reference points so i can feel like i'm going slower and can increase my overall pace (remember that track is pretty slow (tight) to begin with).

Thanks again, I'll be focusing on my mental map for the time being and go from there.
 
#8 ·
As a side note we were cautioned not to use other peoples braking points. (as a concrete reference as where to brake). Basically the idea was you should be developing the brake marker on your own so you don't get stuck in the "I need to brake here mentality, since so and so told me too." (basically making so if you change bikes or such you don't have anything stuck in your mind as I must brake here since you might be going way slower or way faster).
Yep, you have to be careful not to get sucked in by a significantly faster rider, but whenever someone asks me for a tow, I always follow them for a couple laps to get an idea of their pace. Then I pass them and slowly ramp up the speed so they can see where they can improve. That's the kind of thing that any instructor should be willing to do too.

I agree with Paul_E_D that a school would really help you. Keith Code in particular marks turn-in points on the track with tape and his instructors will take a hand off the bike to point at where they're going. Really any school is better than winging it on your own. This sport can have a steep learning curve and the only thing that fixes most problems is a bunch more seat time.
 
#9 ·
I've been pretty lucky this summer with making friends with a few of the instructors. I have seen some improvement but of course you'd always like to see more.

So i'll be taking at least 1 two day school next year.

I took a two day school last summer but the group i was in was a little two advanced for me (meaning i should have been prepared with more reference points and such for things to work on during the race school). Unfortunately they only offer expert and beginner and i'm a solid intermediate. Hopefully i'll get more out of it next summer.

Thanks again, more to come as I'll start on my mental map.
 
#10 ·
you could try to work on the way you look at the track by practicing mountain bike or enduro, it helps to be able to look far away AND in front of your wheel more or less at the same time

at our non-pro pilot level, most people tend to look too much just in front of your wheel and therefore have difficulties to identify and see markers

working on this should help a great deal
 
#11 ·
I never raced bikes and I'm not an instructor, but when I raced karts it was all about track walks for me. I wouldn't go out on a track until I had a chance to walk it, then I'd walk it again at the end of the day after I'd run it.

Haven't been to Thompson, but Loudon is tough. 14 turns, varying terrain made up of bumps and transitions (some of which is significant enough to change the 'ideal' line), and shit the weather is always a decent variable. In the karts Loudon and Summit Point isolated the guys who could drive from the guys that had the best motor.

For me (again in karts) it was a matter of seat time, track walks, and mental laps. Before a race I would sit in the trailer and run mental laps going through every brake, turn in, apex, throttle and exit. I was usually within a couple seconds on the stop watch of actual times.

The thing that helped me progress on the bike was slowing down a little and trying to make the most of every lap. I would be pissed when I got hung up behind slower riders, but I turned it into my best opportunity to find markers like the pink box on the entry to turn 1. Traffic also gave me an opportunity to slow down and focus on a specific section rather than going out and trying to remember what I wanted to do different in all 14 turns.

Well that's about all I have. And its probably worth what you paid for it.
 
#12 ·
It sounds like you've got a lot on your mind while you're riding. Someone else referred to Keith Code's (Soft Science of Road Racing) I whole heartedly agree. Focus on one thing like your braking point. Don't' worry about not getting the apex perfect. After your brake points become a natural movement move on to working the apex's. Do your thinking off the track. If you're thinking about your last turn it's pretty much a guarantee you'll blow the next one. I'd even break it down further. I'd only push your braking point one turn at a time, get around the rest of the track and get that one turn as good as you can, then move to the next one. They're aren't any trophy girls or sponsors waiting to give you a track day trophy. It's all about focusing on your riding.
 
#13 ·
Update.

Another year at Penguin Race School here at NHMS. Two great days of great weather, great coaching and sadly not much speed gained.

However, after this 2 day school I feel like I have a direction and ideas how to execute.

Basically the post before this one helped to sum up the majority of my issues. Focus, I have way, way to much going one in my head when I ride at the track.

That aside focus, direction, plan of attack and feedback are the keys to success. One corner at time (keep focusing on those fast corners) and hopefully i'll get this puzzle sorted out.
 
#14 ·
Basically the post before this one helped to sum up the majority of my issues. Focus, I have way, way to much going one in my head when I ride at the track.
This is not an easy sport by any means. We are managing survival reactions with trying to think clearly, with senses being overwhelmed by all sorts of forces on track.

I think the best approach is to do the thinking and analyzing off track, and focus on the riding when on track. Like Keith Code says in the book, if there are blank spots when you come off the session, you don't have enough attention left to spare to "record" what is happening. With new riders to the track/racing, this is mostly because they are trying to go too fast, brake too hard etc, which overwhelms your limited mental processing.

The trick to going fast, like you hear from a lot of riders, is to go slow. This means that you are smooth, controlled, and are causing the bike to do what you want according to your plan, instead of holding on for dear life while the bike tows you around. And like others have said, focus on one or two things at a time, and slow down until you start getting comfortable. There's really no need to be having any "moments" out there, unless you're racing. Work up to the pace gradually.

Also, it sounds bad, but don't listen to "track day advice". There is a lot of mis-information out there that can get you in trouble, so stay with reputable sources.

It sounds like you are on the right track. Keep being open to learning as much as you can, and work up to speed and control slowly. It will be worth it. But above all, relax and enjoy yourself when you're out there, after all, that is the whole point...
 
#15 ·
If you really want to get faster you need to have your own good reference points. However, they are not hard/fixed points, they will change given where you are entering the turn and where you pointed for your exit. Trying to use a fixed point for where to go to the brakes or turn in can get you into trouble if you are coming faster than usual.

My reference points are the apexes and an exit point. Where I go to the brakes isn't as important as where you are letting go of the brakes and how quick you release the lever. Too many people "jump" off their brakes and lose their geometry control. I start to use my brake when I feel I need to and I attempt to trail off them so that I'm off at the apex or just a bit before. Then once my direction change is complete AND I can see my exit point I can add throttle as I take away lean angle.

Contrary to popular thinking it is not late braking but exit speed that wins races.
 
#16 ·
A couple of things you said make me think that maybe you are too focused on the upcoming reference point and not looking for the following one early enough. For example, if you've located your apex and knocked the bike over, it's time to look at the exit, because you're going to go wherever you're pointed anyway. As well, you'll feel like you have all the time in the world, because you're looking at a point that's several seconds away. When you have that feeling, you're able to maximise the drive out, because everything is happening exactly how you're dictating it. Same thing works for me in braking; I see the braking marker, then am looking for the turn in before I even hit the brakes. I nail down where I want to turn in, and am looking to the side long before I tip the bike in. Everything feels slowed down, all the time in the world. If it feels slow, you go fast.
 
#17 ·
This is solid advice. We call it "ratcheting your eyes" through the turn. You need to keep a wide field of vision, true, but you eyes must actually focus on some targets and Mel described perfectly how that is done.

By the time your bike reaches a reference point, you eyes and mind need already be at least one point head. Some visual traps are tip in and apex curbing. If your eyes rest there too long, it is hard to go fast, or even imagine how to go faster.

I have 10 or so reference points for each turn, but I only ratchet my eyes through a few of them. The ones that ensure a precise line of travel. The rest are in my wide angle view and keep me oriented for situational changes.
 
#18 ·
Great advice guys.

Another piece of advice from the race school was to trail brake. Every single time you are off the gas you are on the brake. If not with pressure covering it with one finger.

Basically off the gas you cover the brake. Settles the bike. You don't leave it on the whole corner but you settle the bike with it and then slowly release it at the apex. (I'm okay doing this at certain corners and not at others)

Just another thing to add to my "thinking way to much"

Also great point about the ratcheting your eyes technique, Paul. This is a serious problem I have at the track. I stop looking far enough ahead and I'm reacting to what the bike is doing and closing myself off from what's coming up. (this is killing my roll speed in 1 and 3). Instead of expecting/pointing, thinking what's next and staying loose to let it do its thing I'm tight and no matter how slowly I'm going feel like I'm going to fast. (when clearly I can tighten my line (roll speed) and miss my apex with solid turn in (precise inputs). So there is plenty of speed left in that corner.

I believe Keith Code in the "The soft science of riding" points this out best.

Okay guys, since everybody seems to be offering great advice can you help me pick specific attainable goals during

1 each time on track (usually only 9 to 11 laps of fun time)

a) clearly pick 2 corners (opposing track ends) to work on
**clearly these should be corners on the track that are the greatest differential between novice and expert (turn 1 Loudon, turn 9, turn 10 exit, turn 11 set up, drive outta 12). just to name a few.


2 each day on track

a) This one is tough, faster lap time, faster split, moving up a brake marker, applying the gas harder sooner (are you running outta track, if not are you really getting on the gas soon enough?), reference points for each turn, riding at 90% instead of 100% and getting faster (gotta have room for safe improvement)


3 each season on track.

a) confidence or speed? I would love to be getting feedback from the motorcycle and being able to understand what she's telling me. (I need to get loose on the bars mid corner before this is even a possibility) Is this a reasonable season long goal or to vague/too specific


Clearly if I gain time I'm doing well, but as the race school pointed out they could take almost anyone and make them a few seconds faster (depending on current level). but going faster incorrectly doesn't help and you'll plateau hard and long if you push the limit before you understand/feel what is happening.

I've been really lucky to have an experienced racer (amateur level)/instructor helping me at the track. I just feel like I can't fully get the benefit from his help since I'm not focused enough on specific things each lap, session/day.

So anybody want to help me determine some specifics.

And anybody joining the fun on July 13th in NHMS?
 
#26 ·
Real summed up the rest of the day very well. But yes I did not go into the rest of the program. I thought it was funny that Nick said "when I get scared". This then lead into the trail braking and reducing risk (lean angle) portion of the day.
Drawing from memory and then adding note thought the day along with a specific plan each time out, the picture comes into focus.
Next time I won't edit its so much. Knowing there are several experienced riders and racers on here. I knew it would be clarified. :)
 
#29 ·
It makes me smile to read all the Spencers/YCRS/ ken and nick info.

They change the way one thinks about how to go fast.
It just rolls off the tongue baby. Feed the people the truth! ;) Those guys are all LEGIT. The best of the best..
 
#31 ·
+++ on the YCRS theory. It's was a little harder for me but really made a big difference once I got it.

It's amazing when talking about this turn or that turn with other guys I might describe my braking and many times I'll hear something like..."I don't brake at all for that turn..."
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top