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Transaction between another member and I gone bad

8K views 42 replies 25 participants last post by  Shamrock 
#1 ·
I'm posting this only because its heading in this direction anyway, may as well get it over with.

I'm being completely honest when I say that I had zero clutch issues at any time in the three years I raced this bike. There was absolutely a Yoyodyne slipper in the bike. It shifted up and down just fine through my final lap in September before I put the bike away.

As far as the forks go, they always felt good to me. Never once did either of them leak. I dropped them off with a suspension guy each spring and picked them up a week later. Not a single word about internal damage was ever spoken.

Unaltered sale thread:
http://www.triumph675.net/forum/showthread.php?t=196345

jb.junior:
02-04-16, 11:59
Hey Victor Ward,

I hope that this year is starting out well for you.

I finally had a chance to get my mechanic on my bike and then take it for a spin on the track, and we found two pretty major problems.

1. One of the fork legs had bad scratches inside. It seemed that this was known about because the oil was way overfilled to prevent it from bottoming and tearing up the seals. My suspension guy found a used tube and changed it over for about $240.

2. The clutch was totally gone. The first lap I rode it was slipped on 4th, 5th, 6th. Completely unridable. I ordered a used on on eBay for $100 and it will be $90 labor to change it (at a discount from a friend); so $190 total.

I'm not sure if you knew about these issues, but someone must have. Perhaps it was the guy before you on the fork, but the clutch is very obviously done. I've had to spend $410 fixing stuff on a bike that I bought that had problems that specifically were not mentioned when I bought it. I obviously can't "make" you pay me back for any of this, but I think it would be the kind and appropriate thing to do for you to pay me back.

Please let me know what you can do. We can talk over the phone or via email if you want. I'd be happy to send you a copy of the invoices for both the clutch and the fork.

Regards,
jb.junior

Victor Ward:
02-04-16, 12:33
I really don't know what to say...

The last time I rode the bike was in September and I was able to shift up and down through the gears without trouble. I never had any trouble with it in the three seasons I owned the bike.

As far as the forks go, I brought them to a guy every spring for service and nothing was ever mentioned to me about scratched tubes. I've never had a leak either.

jb.junior:
02-04-16, 12:54
Ok, well, I guess it's possible that you didn't notice the fork. The clutch just seemed really obvious to me. It's possible that it is an electronic issue, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't. I haven't opened it up yet, but I've had clutches go out on me before, and this is exactly what it feels like. So you had no problems whatsoever pulling to redline? It's slipping all over the place on me. If you say no, then I'll believe you. But it's just odd that this happened right now. I guess I'll have a look at the clutch when I pull it...

Victor Ward:
02-04-16, 13:01
Man I'm really sorry but I'm 100% honest with you when I tell you that I did not have these problems.
I don't have the equipment or know-how when it comes to suspension service so for me it was just drop off and pick up. I was never aware of an issue.
I race at BIR. We have a full one mile drag strip that leads into the fastest turn in North America (aside from the banking at Daytona). That thing is topped out every lap.
I'm no electrical or clutch guru but It what you describe does not sound like an electrical problem.

jb.junior:
02-04-16, 13:19
Ok, well, I believe you then, so no hard feelings there. But nonetheless, the bike still had some pretty major issues that I had to pay for. Anyway you could get me back even just some of that as a gesture?

Victor Ward:
02-04-16, 14:08
I can honestly tell you that I had no troubles with the bike at all my last race weekend (or any weekend last year). I had no clutch issues and I was unaware that there was a problem with one of the forks. My suspension guy never said a thing.

I did my very best to disclose any possible issues I had with the bike and to my knowledge it was in great working order based on how it ran for me in September.

If I had a clutch issue like you describe I would have had it fixed at the track at the first hint of trouble. After all, it would cost me more to miss out on races than it would to have it fixed.

Had I not found such a great deal on a new bike I would be looking forward to riding the one you now have this coming spring.

All that said, I sold you a bike that I had known to be in good working order. Keep in mind that it is also a 2007 race bike that has been run hard for many years and crashed numerous times in its life. All of that was taken into consideration when I came up with the very fair price of $4500 for the bike, wheels, engine, etc. I do feel that even being stuck having to put in a few hundred dollars more, that you still got an ok deal. Just "ok", but you didn't get screwed.

I also cant help but feel that when you buy a used race machine that has been on track for many years that you do accept risk as a buyer in possibly having to make repairs. It sucks but that the reality in dealing with used machines.

I understand your frustration and I'm being honest with you. This is the nicest way I can think of to tell you "no", I wont be sending you any money.

jb.junior:
Yesterday, 14:41 (2-15-16)
I brought this to a professional mechanic, and he worked on it. The entire clutch was completely toast. Including the Yoyodyne housing pieces. I need to COMPLETELY replace that $800 piece. And another $100 for the clutch plates. I bought that bike, and you advertised it as, having a YOYODYNE SLIPPER CLUTCH. It did NOT have that clutch. Se the attached pics. There are grooves worn in both piece of the housing because you, or your mechanic, or whomever, did not install it correctly. Your rebuttle that "you got a lot of bike for the money, deal with it," is also completely unacceptable.

This bike did not work the second that I got it, and that is unacceptable. I've brought this issue to lots of people, including two mechanics who test rode it, and everyone is of the opinion that there is effectively zero percent chance that the previous user of this bike did not know that there was a problem with its clutch. You simply can't have wear in the plates like that and not notice that it's slipping. I'm going to post on this forum to see if people think the same.

I'm also going to post a specific thread about this transaction, stating each of my grievances here, and specifically name you as the seller. I'm going to start with the clutch, and also talk about the fork. Again, I'm going to post another thread in the tech forums, with photos of that very scratched fork leg, and the unusually high level of fork oil that was added by someone to cover up the fact that there was a bad scratch, and get people's opinion on that too. I have both the clutch and the fork documented with bills, receipts, and photographs.

If you want to find me a new slipper clutch, even a used one, I won't do that. But if not, I'm going to blow this thing up.
 
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#3 ·
I am said buyer and the counter party of this transaction.

There is a broad "moral" issue here, regarding two specific technical ones.

Technical issue #1: the clutch. As you see in the original listing, the bike was supposed to include a Yoyodyne slipper clutch. It is my argument that this is a misrepresentation by the buyer because, although there was indeed a Yoyodyne in the bike, it is completely trashed and needs to be 100% replaced. It's not that it's in there, and kind of works and I received a clutch with only 50% life on it, or some other grey area. No -- the clutch is completely shot and the bike was 100% unridable in the condition in which I bought it.

In short, the clutch was not installed properly by either the seller, his mechanic, or the person who owned it before him. Please see pics of the Yoyodyne. As you will note, there are groves worn in the Yoyodyne that make it slip and render the bike unfunctional. After working with a professional mechanic, who is Triumph trained, it is clear that the clutch was never installed correctly (plates were not installed in the right order and thickness, and other problems), causing the plates to wear in to the Yoyodyne.

On a moral level, did the seller know that he sold me a bike with a totally trashed, needing to be replaced Yoyodyne slipper clutch? On these moral issues, it is my general temperament to be very cautious about accusing someone of a moral transgression without being as close to 100% sure as possible. I cannot say that I am 100% sure in the case of this clutch. But I, two professional mechanics, and countless other riders and racers with whom I have discussed the issue, worked on the bike, and let ride it, are of the opinion that it is nearly impossible that someone could have ridden this bike on track -- let alone ride it at race pace -- without knowing that there was a problem with the clutch. It slips badly at the top of fourth, fifth and sixth, in a manner unmistakable for a bad clutch. This happened the FIRST day that I brought the bike on the track.

I've since had to replace the clutch with the Yoyodyne from my other D675-- at a high cost of having to do a "rush order" with my mechanic to get this bike ready for the upcoming race weekend on 2/20/16. I haven't got the bill yet, but it's going to be a lot. AND, I'll need to by a new (or if I can find one, used) Yoyodyne, or other slipper, for my other bike, at a cost of ~$800. So let's say this particular oversight cost me $1,000 -- at least. Pretty sh*ity.

I'm curious to see if people think this could have been missed. Racers, please give your input, based on the photos.

Technical issue #2: When I first bought the bike from Brandon, I removed the forks and shock to have them serviced by my suspension guy here in Texas, who is reputable and well known. Upon opening up the right fork, he found scratches inside that he insisted if not tended to would damage the internals and cause issues with the fork. He also noted that the fork was filled "way too high -- suspiciously high" with fork oil. He, and I, are of the opinion that someone filled this fork tube very high with oil to compensate for this scratch and basically bandaid a real problem. Again, I can't say for sure if the seller knew about and/or did this, but the last person who worked on this suspension invariably knew for sure that this issue was present and performed a "jherry rig" workaround to around having to resolve the actual problem -- replacing the fork leg.

I of course replaced the fork let, at a cost of $300 for a used leg, and another $180 of labor, for a total cost of $480. Again -- pretty sh*tty.

I obvious contacted Brandon about these, and he has obviously refused to take any responsibility -- which I find pretty poor. It it were me, I would honestly have given some kind of refund for these two issues. Me having to replace a complete slipper clutch -- that was 100% unusable from day one is just unacceptable for me. I'm willing to just accept that he didn't know about either of these issues, but nonetheless, I think he should give me some kind of partial refund for the $1,500+ I'm having to spend on fixing this bike.

Furthermore, I think the seller's reply of, "you got plenty of things for the money, so you shouldn't worry about it" is pretty poor. The reality is that I was sold a bike with the promise of a Yoyodyne slipper, and it didn't have one. It doesn't matter "how good a deal" it still was -- I was promised something that was not there. And had to spend a ton of time and labor costs to figure it out.

I mean, how far do you take this "well, it doesn't work, but everything else was a good value, so deal with it"? What if the frame had a crack? What if the engine didn't start and needed a rebuild? I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's fair to sell someone a bike with a major problem -- knowingly or not -- and deny them any compensation for having to fix it. This is certainly not how I do business. I've sold plenty of bikes, and there's been at least one or two occasions where something came up that was a problem with the bike that I did not know about. The new owner proved it out (as I have done here) and I gave him back the money, or replaced the part, 100% at my costs. I think this is the way to go.

So if anyone buys a bike from me in the future, I would never do you like this.

*JB
 

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#5 ·
Used bikes in general are sold "as is". It's the buyer's responsibility to find any issues before handing over the cash. There's a reason the saying "Buyer beware" has been around since ancient Rome.

And how do we know that the seller didn't go out and burn out the clutch and mess up the forks himself then take it to a mechanic afterwards? Why did he buy a bike without making sure it was mechanically sound? The fork might be overlooked in a general inspection /test ride, but the clutch should have been easily caught if the seller had done his due diligence.
 
#6 ·
Used bikes in general are sold "as is". It's the buyer's responsibility to find any issues before handing over the cash. There's a reason the saying "Buyer beware" has been around since ancient Rome.

And how do we know that the seller didn't go out and burn out the clutch and mess up the forks himself then take it to a mechanic afterwards? Why did he buy a bike without making sure it was mechanically sound? The fork might be overlooked in a general inspection /test ride, but the clutch should have been easily caught if the seller had done his due diligence.
I assume you mean buyer.

I'm of the same opinion. I've been burned on buying used vehicles before and while it's frustrating I really have no one to blame but myself. Private party bought used vehicles are as is. You can contact the person and they may be willing to help but if not, as in this case, you just have to deal with it an move on. Reading the sellers post and his post history I don't think he was out to burn you and believe he is being honest.

Sorry you had this happen buyer but that's part of it unfortunately. Especially so when dealing with race machines.
 
#7 ·
I agree with Nastybutler. In this case, a test ride wouldn't only have been in the buyers best interest...

Buying a bike without riding/looking at it in person? I'm sorry to say, but it's really up to the buyers discretion.

Down south folks list vehicles with "as is" disclaimers for this very reason. If you miss it at the time of sale; you're usually stuck with it. It's harsh, but perform your due diligence in looking over second handies...
 
#9 ·
I'm with the majority above. Typically a used car or bike is sold "as is" even if that's not listed, there's no way to unequivocally know the bikes history, or path. While it's a bummer that you've experienced these problems, it's not the sellers responsibility to have them fixed. Unfortunately its "your word, versus his" and in this case he is not obligated to fix anything. I don't know exactly what transpired here, but this is the EXACT reason why I decided to purchase a bike brand new. Sure it was way more expensive but I started with a fresh new bike and 2 year warranty to address any problems I might have incurred. Looking back at it, I'm very glad I did this because I ended up having warranty work done without spending a dime out of my own pocket. At the end of the day you get what you pay for, and when you buy something used and unseen you're taking quite a risk assuming it's going to be perfect and up to your standards. Again sorry for your unfortunate brake and best of luck in the future.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Due diligence, I'm sorry. If there was something wrong, especially with the clutch it was on you to test ride the bike before paying for it and confirm that it was mechanically sound. I don't think you could have caught the fork damage even in an inspection unless you had the forks apart prior to purchasing it. Do I think the seller should have to pay for the damaged clutch? Unfortunately, no. Only because you should have tested the bike before purchasing it to make sure it was at least minimally mechanically functional. If you test rode the bike and it was slipping in testing then you would have been able to walk away or have the seller adjust the price accordingly. If you haven't already had the repairs done and you want to save yourself some more money maybe take on the clutch repair yourself, should be fairly manageable. I don't even do my own fork/shock service I contract that work out to an expert who knows what they are doing. Sorry buyer, hope you get the bike sorted and are able to enjoy it.

Sent from Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#12 ·
Yea, it's an annoying situation. I always try to be very detailed when I sell an item but you may not always catch it all. Last modified car I sold I encouraged the buyer to have a PPI done by an independent shop so there was no question about the condition of the car. He flew out to CA and drove it all the way back to the east coast!
 
#14 ·
Once sold it's always the buyers bike in total. Any problems that arise are not the sellers issue. I would never buy a bike site unseen and unridden. Also in the case of a bike with this sort of history I would have done a substantial amount of tear down and inspection prior to buying. If the seller wouldn't let me do that or a shop do that I wouldn't buy it.
 
#15 ·
I think there is some degree of the seller representing the vehicle to the best of her/her knowledge. It is also the buyer's responsibility to be educated about the product he/she is purchasing.

Most every sale is as is/where is. It didn't appear like the seller was trying to obviously cover up any known issues (bondo over rust, for e.g.)

In my opinion if the buyer were expecting, without a doubt, a vehicle in pristine condition with some sort of warranty he should have purchased it new at a dealer.
 
#19 ·
I'm actually relatively highly educated on a Triumph Daytona 675 motorcycle and have owned half a dozen and have ridden Triumphs long before the D675 ever even came out. If the ad says "Yoyodyne slipper clutch," I know exactly what that piece of equipment is and how it should work. Including in my understanding of that is an expectation that it will at least work sort of. This bike came to me totally unrideable.
 
#22 ·
I think this definitely highlights the legal phrase "buyer beware". It's down to the buyer to make sure they are happy with their purchase. I would never buy a vehicle without seeing it and testing it. Especially a race bike. They lead hard life's and you need to keep on top of them mechanically.

It sounds like the seller has done this by getting the shop to sort his forks and clutch. If the shops have installed things incorrectly how does the seller know? He keeps going back to them and the problem gets compounded.

The clutch may have been just one ride away from failing and unfortunately maybe the seller was the person who found that out.

From what the seller has written I don't think he had any knowledge of any problems and meaning absolutely no disrespect to him, maybe his pace isn't fast enough to highlight the problems anyway.

I don't know the distances involved but wouldn't it have been money well spent to hop on a plane and view the bike before purchase?

Sorry buyer, but I think you should have had more "due diligence". And a clutch is a consumable item, more so on a race bike.
 
#25 ·
I had begun typing out a long post when I thought I was being a little harsh, but it seems everyone is on the same page. I feel for the buyer, but I would take this as a lesson learned and move on.

In every North American jurisdiction as far as I am aware, all used vehicle purchases are sold as-is unless a written warranty is provided. And said warranty must explicitly state what is covered and for how long, and be signed by both seller and buyer acknowledging the agreement. Any verbal or even typed email or text messages are not considered in court in these matters.

Comments like "will last another 10,000 miles", "needs no work", etc. In private vehicle sales are considered "puffery" in legal terms. And a seller cannot be held accountable for them in court. The ONLY time I have ever seen a ruling against a seller was when the car was titled salvage/rebuilt, was aware of it, and did not disclose this information. Anything other than something like that and the court always leans towards the seller in private vehicle sales. That's why it's "buyer beware" and imperative that any vehicle purchase should include a test drive before purchase.

Seller took a risk by not inspecting. Likely encouraged towards negligence in this matter by a good price, and a sense of the forum somehow providing karma towards a transaction.

I had a similar situation where I was the seller. I was truthful in all the information I provided in the advertisement and communications including that it was a daily driver for about 5-6 years, then for the last year it was barely driven (less than 200km total) and sat for 5 months over the winter season. I also mentioned that it consumed about 1L of oil over an oil change (every 6 months and about 7,500km), which is why I added an oil catch can, which the buyer saw when I popped the hood for him. Had multiple interested buyers. One guy snapped it up.

Two weeks later, he texts me saying he loves the car but that I owe him a lot of money, compression is down on 2 cylinders, intake and intercooler full of oil. And that I must've known about the problem because I cut the wires to an oil pressure sensor, and a ground wire to the OBD2 port. And that if I wasn't going to compensate him in full for the repairs, including an engine rebuild or new engine, and that he contacted a lawyer whom told him he had grounds to sue me.

The oil pressure sensor? It was after market. I kept the gauge, and left the sender in the block because I couldn't remember where I put the plug that was originally there. And the OBD2 ground wire? It was a ground wire for interior lighting that I removed before selling the car.

But in an effort to not stoke the fire so to speak, the only response I gave him was simply "I covered all legal requirements as a private vehicle seller. If you are going to sue me if I do not compensate you for a new engine and other things, then do not contact me any more unless it is through your lawyer." Because I knew he had absolutely no legal ground to stand on, and that any actual lawyer would have told him the same. Guess what, never heard back from him. And I'm sure it's not because he had a change of mind . . . simply put, he had no grounds to sue me.
 
#26 ·
One last thought on the clutch situation. I was racing a '13 ZX6r last season which had a Yoyodyne slipper in it as well (liked it better than stock slipper). Clutch plates had almost full season on them at least. On my last club race weekend everything had worked great for the first two races of the day no issues at all, then on the warm up lap (not even the race) of my last race of the day it would barley get around the track without slipping because the plates were done. So I had to pull off into pit lane and missed the race.
Point is it can happen "all of a sudden" even if the clutch is installed correctly. Parts wear out and might not give you any warning at all until they go. Just my 2 cents.
 
#27 ·
Just another guys thoughts...


I have sold quite a few MODIFIED motorcycles over the last 5 years.
When selling these machines I do everything in my power to make sure these are sold without fault, especially mechanical.
If there is even a slight doubt, I let the person know up front about any possible conditions...


On a slipper clutch like a yoyo-dyne or STM, they have a service limit and are something THAT WILL WEAR OUT!... guess they don't tell you that on the webpage.. $800 consumable. most people have no clue about that either.


Also when buying used, who owned this bike before the current guy? how many times has it been down, engine still running while the bike is on its side? it happens.... usually the guy down the road finds out when his motor fails..


but without a doubt, buying used can be scary and as someone mentioned, keep some money set aside for fixing or resolving the issues which might not have been divulged or are even known.. Truly sucks for sure.


Guess you should have bought the 2012 675R race/track bike I am listing this week! :wink3:
 
#41 ·
just a quick side note... i do notice the scratches on the forks, but due to my lack of knowledge of anything mechanical, are those scratches really that big of a deal? based on your description, i assumed there were heavy scratches but they seem light to me.

not trying to sound like a jerk, just asking because i'm stupid~
 
#42 ·
I rode a SV650 for lots of years as a track only bike and yes the clutch went out like a light switch one day as someone else described, so I know it could happen that way.

"Buyer Beware"....sorry I pretty much disagree with how most are characterizing that phrase. Forget all this legally speaking crap, race bike crap, trackday bike, street bike whatever. The seller has a total moral obligation to disclose everything he knows about the condition of the bike whether the buyer ask a specific clutch question or not...or any other component for that matter. Selling isn't a opportunity to see what you can get away with. I'm not saying the seller did or did not know about any of that, how would I or anyone else know that. He is literally the only one that knows. What worries me a bit is the attitude about Buyer Beware, pretty sad.
 
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