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How much lean is too much?

21K views 47 replies 28 participants last post by  HoneyBadger 
#1 ·
Did a quick search, found nothing, sorry if it's been said before...


Found this topic on a forum for beginner riders and found it to be the exact question I need answered to move beyond the plateau I seem to have hit.

My question for discussion is: without using trial and error, how do you know when you are nearing the limits of traction for a lean angle at a given speed?

I have about an inch left of my chicken strips and I'd like to whittle that down to about a half-inch.

How much lean can I really expect to get out of a tight 20-25mph turn versus a 30-35mph turn? Can the bike even be at max lean angle on these types of turns?

The discussion on the aforementioned forum suggests that you'll scrape pegs before reaching the lean angle of most tires. Is this true for the Daytona with its higher perch?

I guess I just need some kind of litmus test to see where I'm at. I don't ride track and never will -- I'm married with kids and it's just too expensive -- I'd just like to know where I'm at with mastering this art that I've grown to love as a street rider. If one inch is about as far as it should go, then okie doke, but I just feel its got a lot left even for the street.
 
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#3 ·
What are chicken strips.....do those come free with a certain tire? Mine don't have any, no wonder I'm always hungry during a ride! Seriously though I don't know how to answer your question but I can tell you the bike will lean further than most people are comfortable leaning it, I would suggest you check out some information, try reading twist of the wrist. There are a lot of factors that go into" lean angle". Tires, suspension, throttle input etc......
Unless you are TWW he is at max lean everywhere he goes lol

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#4 ·
if you fall off the bike and the bike slides down the road, that's probably too much lean

you'll simply have to keep pushing it

but the more technical answer factors road conditions, tire temp, ambient temp, tire pressure, etc., i'm sure

lastly, someone will point to the necessity of a track session - make it a goal and you can definitely save up
 
#5 ·
No popcorn available here.


You know, it's a shame. This forum is probably one of the best I've ever been on, including forums in my days as a car enthusiast. The information I've learned here has saved me numerous times, but the trade-off seems to be that the cost of such a high concentration of highly skilled riders is you have to be afraid to ask a question.


The old adage, "if you've got nothing nice to say..." is one piece of knowledge some of you "pros" are still lacking.


This obviously wasn't aimed at any of you who started your post sarcastically, but made an honest effort to respond later.
 
#6 ·
No popcorn available here.

You know, it's a shame. This forum is probably one of the best I've ever been on, including forums in my days as a car enthusiast. The information I've learned here has saved me numerous times, but the trade-off seems to be that the cost of such a high concentration of highly skilled riders is you have to be afraid to ask a question.

The old adage, "if you've got nothing nice to say..." is one piece of knowledge some of you "pros" are still lacking.
Never be afraid to ask a question here, most of us have been around for quite a while and enjoy the same ball busting antics that can be found among brothers. I'm sure no one means anything malicious towards you.

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#7 ·
I've always believed stupid questions do exist.

If you're going at 25-35 miles. You're not riding the bike the way it's made. Why does it matter what your lean angle is at those speeds on the street.

You don't want to learn by trial and error but that will be the only way you will teach yourself. We can't tell you a magic number and make you strive for it.

The whole point is to reduce lean angle and get as much traction as possible. Increasing lean angle unnecessarily is stupid.
 
#12 ·
I've always believed stupid questions do exist.

If you're going at 25-35 miles. You're not riding the bike the way it's made. Why does it matter what your lean angle is at those speeds on the street.

You don't want to learn by trial and error but that will be the only way you will teach yourself. We can't tell you a magic number and make you strive for it.

The whole point is to reduce lean angle and get as much traction as possible. Increasing lean angle unnecessarily is stupid.
You might have misunderstood my question. I'm talking about turns that are tight and the posted "limit" is a recommended 20-25mph.

I realize it would be extremely difficult and variable-ridden to make a blanket statement like, "should be able to do 65 around those turns".

A lot of the turns I practice on are to and from work with a posted limit of anywhere from 20-35. I'm just curious if its even worth it to try going faster around them, or are turns that tight taken at less of a lean angle even by experienced riders?

Another way to pose it might be: at what point do physics make it impossible for the bike to go any faster around the turn?

OP - thicken your skin man. Your question is pretty loaded and will receive the gamut of abuse. Most of us have been parked for the winter and our balls are ready to explode due to the lack of riding purge.

As mentioned, and will be mentioned, chicken strips on tires are affected by many variables:

Tire profile
Tire air pressure
actual lean (regardless of speed - see "Gymkana")
road surface and crown

This is just for starters. My last set of tires were Michelin Pilot Road3's. I had zero chicken strip on the rear. I recently changed over to Bridgestone S20 EVO's and have about 1/16" of strip on each side of the rear. However, I know, without a doubt, that I am leaning over more than I did with the PR3's. Same roads, but now at even higher cornering speeds. I ran 38 PSI (rear) in the PR3's, and 36 psi (rear) in the S20's.

Have a couple buddies come over and lean your bike over while you observe the contact patch. You will be amazed just how far you can lean the bike over and still see contact.

Traction - is a moving target. You can have tire contact patch at any lean angle and break traction. This again, will open a whole new can of worms. :smile2:
I do need thicker skin. I've been working really hard at ingesting a ton of information on reference points, apexes, tip-in points, when to throttle-on, etc. and this is my last reservation.

My apologies, thanks for the follow-up.

Never be afraid to ask a question here, most of us have been around for quite a while and enjoy the same ball busting antics that can be found among brothers. I'm sure no one means anything malicious towards you.

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Thanks. Hindsight, should have let it go.
 
#8 ·
OP - thicken your skin man. Your question is pretty loaded and will receive the gamut of abuse. Most of us have been parked for the winter and our balls are ready to explode due to the lack of riding purge.

As mentioned, and will be mentioned, chicken strips on tires are affected by many variables:

Tire profile
Tire air pressure
actual lean (regardless of speed - see "Gymkana")
road surface and crown

This is just for starters. My last set of tires were Michelin Pilot Road3's. I had zero chicken strip on the rear. I recently changed over to Bridgestone S20 EVO's and have about 1/16" of strip on each side of the rear. However, I know, without a doubt, that I am leaning over more than I did with the PR3's. Same roads, but now at even higher cornering speeds. I ran 38 PSI (rear) in the PR3's, and 36 psi (rear) in the S20's.

Have a couple buddies come over and lean your bike over while you observe the contact patch. You will be amazed just how far you can lean the bike over and still see contact.

Traction - is a moving target. You can have tire contact patch at any lean angle and break traction. This again, will open a whole new can of worms. :smile2:
 
#13 ·
1" of "chickenstrips" is good enough IMO. i have lowsided before and its not fun. to lowside because your pushing yourself past your limit is just stupid IMO. you probably will crash, maybe not right away but i can almost promise you it will happen. i have 1" of "chickenstrips" and im fine with that. better lean angle will come with time so im told. you gotta learn to walk before you can run
 
#17 ·
I'll have to check it later. Facebook is blocked at work.

Don't spend too much time worrying about it, concentrate instead on having a good time, with riding buds if possible. That's what riding should really be about. The strips will get smaller, and even if they don't - so be it. All that matters is the smile on your face. :smile2:
This is a valid point as well. I just have come to believe, partly from what I've learned on here, that to really show this sport the respect and appreciation it deserves you make an attempt to master it and really understand how to do it right. Anyone can buy a liter bike and bald the center section of the tire.

Well almost everybody will tell you riding in the upper percentile is not advised on the street.

There's variables mentioned which will dictate everything.

And like I said, unless you actually try you won't know.

It would help if you posted pictures of the corners you're talking about and you actually on them.
That's an awesome idea! I might have to take a weekend and have a buddy photograph me around the turns -- maybe even a short video. That would obviously be the best way to see where I'm at as far as lean, body position, and entry/exit speed.
 
#15 ·
Don't spend too much time worrying about it, concentrate instead on having a good time, with riding buds if possible. That's what riding should really be about. The strips will get smaller, and even if they don't - so be it. All that matters is the smile on your face. :smile2:
 
#21 ·
Tire profile makes a difference too. I had PR3's on my FZ6R that had 1" chicken strips on the rear tire, while the CT2's on my ST3 have none. The PR3's had a much different profile than the CT2's, and the 6R would be hitting hard parts before the far edges of the tire would ever meet the pavement.

Also, the reason why racers drag a knee is because they use it as information on how much lean angle they have. They know when their knee touches how much further they can go. I'm not flexible enough to touch a knee down, so I have to go off other factors. I can feel it when I've gone a little too far as there's a weird wobble that's hard to explain, but when I feel it, I know I've got to decrease my angle. Bear in mind that this is happening on a track or other controlled environment.

I'll +1 the suggestion of taking Lee Park's Total Control classes. I took the first one last summer and hope he comes back up here so I can take the second one. By the end of the first class, those who wanted (and were flexible enough) to drag a knee could, and you'll have a chance in a controlled environment to test the limits of your lean angle.
 
#26 ·
I'm very surprised no one before me has mentioned this (or maybe I missed it): speed=/=lean angle and lean angle=/=speed. The goal of hanging off a motorcycle is to keep it upright. The more upright a motorcycle, the larger the contact patch, the faster you can push.

Many of us riding Deals Gap get a knee down on 25 MPH corners.

If you are smooth with your throttle control and lean input, there is a traction breaking point that you will be able to feel.

1. Like everyone has said: take it to the track
2. Again, lean=/=speed & speed=/=lean, don't sweat it, it takes time
3. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast

All the best & ride safe
 
#27 ·
If you don't have leathers, then trying to test your limits, or your tires limits is going to end very painfully. Not wanting to pay for a track day I can understand, but pylons can be bought at walmart, leathers can be attained cheap used, and parking lots are empty on Sunday mornings.
 
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#28 ·
I believe to answer your original question the answer would rely on YOU. Not necessarily your tires or suspension, but what YOU can handle. With proper skill you can ride around suspension and tire problems to a point. Skill is what keeps you from crashing. If you are looking at chicken strips, most likely you are the limiting factor in how much speed you can carry at any given lean angle. Stop looking at your tire. As you get more comfortable and obtain more skill you will be able to carry more lean and speed. You can highside or lowside at nearly vertical without proper skill.

Recognize when YOU need to back off. You'll get a feel for wheel slippage, chatter, and wobbling with experience. Most of us on this forum (and the internet in general) aren't riding these bikes to their limits. With proper body position and suspension you shouldn't scrape hard parts. And as Nasty said, tire profile matters. You can ride a tire right off the edge and crash. Maximize contact patch, minimize lean angle, it's safer that way if you don't want to trial and error your way to understanding how much is too much.
 
#30 ·
My question for discussion is: without using trial and error, how do you know when you are nearing the limits of traction for a lean angle at a given speed?
Like it or not, the only way to know you're approaching the limit of traction is to go past it. If/when that does happen, hopefully you're in a controlled environment where you can pay attention to the feedback you're getting from the machine---but not over-react and crash. Only then will you know what "approaching the limit" feels like.

Keep in mind as well that speed/lean angle are not the only variables in the traction equation. You'll find the limit much sooner if you get greedy with the throttle (or brakes) at a given lean angle. And to harcourt's point, I agree speed and lean angle are not equivalent... but they are proportional. Yes, you can (and should) reduce the lean angle required at a given speed by lowering your combined center of mass. But in the same body position on the same bike, the faster you take the turn, the more you have to lean. I think harcourt's point was more "Don't judge a rider by their chicken strips." With proper body position you can go as fast as the other guy (with poor body position) and maintain a greater safety margin.

Obviously tire selection is a huge factor---not only in how much grip the compound can provide, but also the profile and construction of the carcass. I never felt comfortable at higher lean angles on sport-touring tires. They seemed to reach a certain point where they just didn't want to lean any farther. And I still had 1/2" chicken strips. Contrast that with the Rosso Corsas that came on the bike or the Q3's I just installed---they just want to keep leaning farther and farther. I dunno, maybe it's just my maturing as a rider, different bikes, improving my suspension setup, etc. But I can't see going back to a sport-touring tire.

In any case, you probably have a lot more lean angle on tap than you think. And it's not like once you get to the edge of the tire it's game over. The contact patch just starts to change shape.

Still, I would recommend you explore that region in the controlled environment of a track day.

 
#36 ·
You haven't watched batman have you
 
#40 ·
On my last bike, I usually had little to no strips. On my D675 I'm not even close yet, though I'm going faster. There are many variables and chicken strips are a piss-poor measure of how well you're riding.

If you focus on chicken strips, or even on speed, you'll be erratic, make mistakes, go slower, and maybe get hurt. If you focus on being smooth - smooth downshifts, smooth transitions from throttle to brake and back to throttle, smooth lines, and focus on precision - precise braking points, precise turn-ins, precise apexes, etc., before you know it you'll be going faster AND you'll be safer.

Lots of good advice here, but I'll still toss in my two cents: concentrate on sight lines. The bike will follow your eyes. Especially the Daytona. This bike can read your mind (so think clearly!).

Oh, and read Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.
 
#41 ·
Don't listen to people who say you can lean a lot farther than you think you can. Your bike can lean a lot farther than you think it can, but only while being ridden by someone who is capable of pushing it that far. You can become that someday if you don't kill yourself trying to ride beyond your abilities. Your are capable of leaning as far as you think or less, and you should only test that in an emergency situation (this doesn't mean someone on a smaller bike just passing you). Read/watch 'A Twist of the Wrist', focus on being smooth, and remember that the goal is to decrease lean angle in order to make a better turn. Also, slow in, fast out, good riders don't charge corners. Be safe, my personal advice is to wear a neck protector (I wear a Leatt, there are other manufacturers), and most importantly, have fun. I'm pretty sure that's why we ride these overpowered race replicas on the street in the first place...
 
#45 ·
I am already a huge fan of Twist of the Wrist -- it's one of the only reasons I know how to ride decently well for a relatively new rider.

Anyway, it's also the reason I agree with your first statement wholeheartedly. I'm pretty humble about my ability and I know I'm nowhere even close to what this bike can really do in the hands of a capable rider.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Oh gawd, the chicken strips!

Please. I am proof that they don't matter. I did my first track day a few months ago. Obliterated my chicken strips. Maybe .050" left... But I was the second slowest person on the track. Second only to the resident slow girl. Pitted with a couple other guys on daytonas, one in b class, one in a. Both had more chicken strips than me.

CHICKEN STRIPS ARE NOT A GAUGE OF SPEED. Only how bad your form is while at speed.
 

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