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Hitting a corner too hot

12K views 41 replies 25 participants last post by  RideorGolf 
#1 ·
I have about 2-3 years of riding experience (off and on) and I am comfortable with hanging off the bike and leaning into a corner. Recently, I took a small road trip to some canyons and I realized that I defiantly need to watch my speed. The road I drove on was curvy but still rated at 45mph with some 25-30mph curves. I tried not to hit the curves at above 50mph, but sometimes I would look down and notice that I hit a curve at 60mph. While taking a corner, I thought to myself that I was in it to hot as I could not see the other side of the curve and was scared that a car was going to pop out. After that curve I slowed down.

But now I'm questioning, what is the proper thing to do if you enter a corner too fast? Do you hit the brake, if so, which one? Do you pull off the throttle?

I usually just commit to the turn and keep the throttle steady; however, there could be unseen obstacles on a public road. I guess one could say not to speed, but even if you were going 45 and there was a moose mid turn, what would you do?
 
#2 ·
Grab every bit of that front brake and scream ALLLAAAHHHHH ACKBAR!

In reality. Check out sport rising techniques or twist of the wrist. I believe both books address that very question in far better words than I have
It's a two sided question. In some cases even if there is an obstruction, more lean and throttle is the only way to not wreck.
In others even, and quick but steady application of both front and back breaks as you lessen the throttle and stand the bike up to stop just in time

Reality = adrenaline epi, fear, sweaty hands, sun glare or headlights, rocks. Slick road, blah blah blah. Ride smarter
If you are asking this question, don't hit it so hard on those roads, take it to the track
And if nothing is going to stop you from riding that hard, on surface streets, you are taking in more factors than even the Moto gp guys and putting your life and others at risk

Just my 2c
 
#3 ·
1. In slow, out fast.

2. If there is a moose in your lane, hit the gas and duck. You should be able to shoot under their belly before they react.

x
 
#7 · (Edited)
You're talking a few different scenarios all at once, so let's try a little divide and conquer.

If you've gotten into a turn a little hot and don't think you can make the apex without scrubbing some speed, dragging a little bit of rear brake (only) can help tighten the line up without washing out the front. If you're truly too hot and can't turn more, using the front brake will be a disaster. The front tire will already be near its traction limit and asking it to do some braking in addition to cornering will overload it and you'll low-side. Prior to the apex, you'll just be using maintenance throttle (maybe a hair more), so reducing throttle input will not accomplish much, and if it does it may transfer too much weight forward (low-side again) and in any case it is likely to be abrupt and unsettling. You can be smoother and more precise with the rear brake than with the throttle. Learn this technique when you're not at the limit first!

If you're already down near the apex and realize the turn is tightening up on you (decreasing radius), you still have plenty of lane left to work with on the outside. Stand the bike up momentarily, brake as you approach the outside (i.e., center line in a right hander), then turn in again. Essentially you make the curve into a double apex line.

Obstructions in the road are a whole different game, and what you do depends upon what's in the road and what it's doing. In most cases you'll need to get speed down quickly. If you're on a good line and looking as far around the curve as possible, you'll probably have some lane space available to let you stand the bike up and brake. Once you have some speed knocked off, you have more options in maneuvering the bike. Fixed objects, like a rock or log in the road, can then be ridden around. If it's a large animal, STOP if at all possible. Frightened critters are unpredictable, and if you try to go around they're quite likely to dodge into you.

Encountering a deer in the road, mid-corner, is one of my worst nightmares. I was in a curve near Elijay, GA, some years ago, and came upon a couple of does in the road. I was able to get the bike stopped, thank God, but it was a while before my heart rate got back to normal. Animals can leap in front of you without warning and sometimes there's not much you can do.

If you're at Deals Gap and encounter a large truck occupying both lanes in a curve, likely nothing you can do will work. Just try to get in a quick prayer before you die.

Overall, the best advice I can offer is to get this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072
and read it cover to cover. Then read it again. Then go practice. Then read it again. Then go practice. Then read it again. Then go.....

I've been reading and re-reading and re-re-reading that book for years. Even when I know what it says, I still read it again just to keep everything in the front of my mind.
 
#9 ·
Generally speaking, 99.9% of people on the road aren't riding their tires so hard that they can't possibly use front brake to slow down. So I doubt that's the problem.

I trail brake most every turn on the track, and only use the front. It's not going to wash out as soon as people think, unless you grab a whole bunch of brake. Like the rest of motorcycling, smoothness is key.
 
#15 ·
Generally speaking, 99.9% of people on the road aren't riding their tires so hard that they can't possibly use front brake to slow down. So I doubt that's the problem.

I trail brake most every turn on the track, and only use the front. It's not going to wash out as soon as people think, unless you grab a whole bunch of brake. Like the rest of motorcycling, smoothness is key.
This... the Hoke-man knows. The best way to be able to scrub speed is to be trail braking in the first place. You'll get in trouble if you are using zero brakes, then decide you are too hot, and then grab a handful and abruptly transition a bunch of weight to the front... and it will be abrupt if you consider the additional decision/reaction time. On the other hand, if you are already lightly trail braking, easing on a little bit more brake won't cause you much grief.

This is a sequence from one of my races the other weekend; if you look at the travel on the forks, there's lots of brake being applied until well into the corner, but there's no abrupt transition... so no worries, mate.

http://www.osella.com.au/2015-QRRC/F2/Group/index.html#OSE_2758.JPG
 
#10 ·
I realized I've been trail braking for a while without actually forcing myself to do; front and rear, I don't have enough feel to just do rear and have a major impact on speed.

I won't hold it very far deep into the turn but certain turns I'll find me releasing as bike is already turning in.

I think I've been doing it subconsciously since I found the bike to be more stable and controlable
 
#11 ·
I realized I've been trail braking for a while without actually forcing myself to do; front and rear, I don't have enough feel to just do rear and have a major impact on speed.

I won't hold it very far deep into the turn but certain turns I'll find me releasing as bike is already turning in.

I think I've been doing it subconsciously since I found the bike to be more stable and controlable
Just to clarify, the purpose of using the rear brake while in a corner generally isn't to reduce your speed, per se.... it helps to tight the radius of your line. While it may also have some incidental effect on your speed, it's not the reason for it, and it shouldn't be a major impact. Applying enough rear brake to have significant impact on your speed while a lot of the weight of the bike is shifted onto the front wheel is a pretty good way of breaking rear wheel traction. :|
 
#13 ·
Well yeah. I said I do to subconsciously but I don't have the full grasp on it. I find myself using both front and rear and rarely to never just the rear.
 
#14 ·
I go off a simple motto for when you think you're coming in too hot..

When in doubt, Throttle Out.

As mentioned above, any application of the front brake will end in disaster.

If you HAVE to brake, only apply the rear brake. You dont want to ask the front suspension to do too much work.

The Reality of "coming too hot" is, you're not really coming in too hot. The bike is designed to corner, you're probably just getting scared... The bike will do what its designed to do if you dont impede its ability to do so.

So, my advice... Point your head at the exit of the corner, dont look anywhere else but where you're wanting to go, stay steady and smooth on the throttle, and rip that ***** wide open on the exit.

You'll accomplish a couple things here...
Push your personal limits
Need a new pair of underwear
realize that YOU were the limiting factor and not the bike.
Gain a new level of confidence.
And still need a new pair of underwear.
 
#18 · (Edited)
You can always learn to "square the turn".

I goes like this:

Come in hot.

With the front brakes nearly at threshold limits - which means there is very little weight on the rear tire - apply the rear brake to initiate a slide.

With the rear tire sliding to the outside of the turn, apply throttle and accelerate massively to create a slightly spinning rear to drive around the corner.

or, conversly, bailing on the curve -

Grab a handful of front brake, stand the bike up and hope that you don't run out of road (if you are on the outside part of the curve) or no one is coming in the opposite direction (if you are on the inside of the curve).

If neither of these two seem appealing, learn to "go in slow and come out fast". This won't get you into trouble on the street and may save your life.

x
 
#19 ·
Both of those 2 scenarios you describe are not really valid options. I seriously doubt anyone is coming into a corner on the street too hot for the bike to handle. Too hot for the person to handle, yes, but not the bike. Only exception being IOM TT riders and Irish Roadracing riders.

No, the best option is to ease on the brakes slowly and slowly roll off the throttle, took far through the turn rather than in front of you, lean your body off more and hang on.

99% of the time in videos I see of people "coming in too hot", it's just the rider target fixating on the outside of the curve coming up, not looking through the turn, and then just freezing and not knowing what to do. And even then, they are rarely anywhere close to max lean on the bike.

Obviously, you want to avoid the situation if possible before it ever comes up. Slow in-fast out is good for that.\

Go to the racetrack and work on your cornering skills.
 
#22 · (Edited)
When I am on a curvy stretch (back roads / canyons) I rarely use the front brake. I normally reduce speed with smooth and light engine braking and rear brake. In my experience that seems to keep the suspension the most composed. If need be, I will continue to apply a small amount of rear brake in the corner depending on lean angle if needed. Honestly I just feel the attitude of the bike and react. Now, if I come in very hot (which is very rare) I pull the clutch while upright and apply smooth firm front brake and modulate rear brake to keep her composed. I release the brakes and clutch and apply throttle just before I lean in.....adjust throttle accordingly from there. If I come in even hotter than that, I try and remember the bike is more capable than me and I grow some balls to ride it out while staying focused…..fear will bite you. I try to keep the best form regardless of entry speed or lean angle all the time, that way its muscle memory in an "oh shit" moment. Unfortunately, I have broken both of my hands and numerous fingers over the years and am not able to fully extend my index finger. Otherwise, I would probably not pull the clutch, but would decrease throttle smoothly while applying front brakes with my index and middle. In a blind corner with an obstacle around the bend is a bad day. It really depends on the situation to determine how you should react. In most cases a good line and safe entry speed is the most important factor in my experience. I will admit that fear and adrenaline have caused me to not make the best decisions in some cases....but I have been lucky...and I realize that and have learned in hopes to be better next time around. Simply put ride within your skill level, push it to better yourself when conditions are far in your favor. I am not an amazing rider and def make mistakes myself, though I have taken many MSF courses to better myself....I suggest the same. Burn as you will but it works for me.

Edit: obviously remember the standard rule….look where you wanna go, not what is trying to kill you. Thats gotta be the best lesson I have ever learned in regards to riding. It has saved me more times than Id like to admit.
 
#30 ·
When I am on a curvy stretch (back roads / canyons) I rarely use the front brake. I normally reduce speed with smooth and light engine braking and rear brake. In my experience that seems to keep the suspension the most composed. If need be, I will continue to apply a small amount of rear brake in the corner depending on lean angle if needed. Honestly I just feel the attitude of the bike and react. Now, if I come in very hot (which is very rare) I pull the clutch while upright and apply smooth firm front brake and modulate rear brake to keep her composed. I release the brakes and clutch and apply throttle just before I lean in.........


^^^
Please do not do any of the things in bold.

MSF is a decent start to learn how to ride a bike for the first time, but it isn't the best way to ride. (Yes, I do know what I'm talking about I teach MSF classes.) I also instruct other riding schools and race schools. I truly hate that the BRC classes teach people to do all their braking straight up and down and to let go before tipping in.

See post #7 from Half fast and get to YCRS class. :wink3:
 
#29 ·
Of all the good books mentioned, I don't think I saw "total control". It is solely about street riding techniques. Where to look, what to do with your appendages, how to sit, how to set up suspension even. How to get in the zone, blah blah blah. I've gone front to back on that book multiple times.
 
#31 ·
I'm a bit surprised some people are recommending trailing in with the rear brake. The rear wheel is already naturally engine braking a bit, and with the weight towards the front of the bike, you'll want to be using the front brake. Not to mention it's a LOT easier to make fine adjustments with your hand rather than your foot.


A quick browse of some of the track day schools all mention using the lever to trail in.
 
#32 ·
It's possible with practice to use your rear brake as a form of traction control. It doesn't hurt to drag your rear brake into a corner, if you feel like any more front brake will cause the front to lose traction.

It's easier to control the amount of braking better with your rear brake than what the lil engine braking you are getting after you tip in.
 
#34 · (Edited)
It's useful to think about experience as 1) number of miles ridden and 2) total number of hours spent riding in the seat rather than number of years holding a motorcycle licence / riding endorsement.

You may want to think about enrolling for certified road rider and / or track training. Every year I take road and track coaching courses in an effort to unlearn bad habits and pick up some good ones.

I've deliberately not answered your questions on cornering because there's plenty of responses already in this thread. For my tuppence you would learn a lot by attending a recognised track school such as California Superbike School. You'll be amazed.
 
#35 ·
Thank you for the replies everyone! I read through all the posts and found the information very helpful. I also looked at videos on trail braking, and, to my understanding, trail braking isn't necessary for slowing down but to make a smooth transition back on the throttal.

"In slow, out fast", I'll remember that one!
 
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