seized engine symptoms [Archive] - Triumph675.Net Forums

: seized engine symptoms


6ix7even5ive
02-21-10, 08:55
howdey chaps.

I would like to know how do i go about testing for, and identifying a seized motor?

Thanks for the help.

air_odie
02-21-10, 09:31
one real good trick and simple is to get to the starter and useing a battery try to roll the starter if it engages and spins the motor you know your starter works and you have rotation in the engine, if nothing happens either youre not doing it right or the starter is dead

if the starter kinda clicks but doesnt turn youre motor is not turning

you could do the same on the motor by getting to the flywheel

also could inspect inlet and exhaust ports for problems

check oil for metal shaveings

pull upper cover off and peer into the depths

6ix7even5ive
02-21-10, 14:30
Ok thanks, Air.

First of all: I dont know much about engines and bikes.

heres what I tried:
1. Starting the bike normally has these symptoms:

everything is fine at first (lights, lap of dials, normal sounds etc)
when I turn the key, all lights go dead, while nothing else happens (almost like the starter drains all power from the battery)
2. I also tried releasing the clutch while pushing the bike very slowly:

turn ignition - all is as normal, lights, dials, everything.
put bike in 1st gear
pull clutch in
push bike slowly and release clutch
normally this would cause the engine to turn over one or 2 strokes, and normally youd hear the distinctive 3 cylinder sound for that stroke or 2.

on my bike: nothing! she pulls the bike to an immediate standstill while locking up the back wheel. This made me think that the engine is stuck ie. seized.??

Please Please help, my pride and joy is dead.
A friend dropped her at 30km/h - the dealers fixed her up, and 150kms after the repair, this is the symptoms? Maybe I should start a new thread?

Thanks Guys.

killerkali
02-21-10, 14:39
You cant pop the clutch and jump start this bike, mine will just lock up the tire too. Make sure to check all your fuses first and go from there.

6ix7even5ive
02-21-10, 14:49
Thanks Killer.

Yeah, I know you cant push start, but im just trying to get any evidence that the engine is actually moving (turning over) and not stuck in 1 position.

You should be able to hear the engine as you release the clutch, right? Cause mine does noting, no sound of any engine movement. And I think thats bad... very bad?

killerkali
02-21-10, 14:52
If I get a rolling start on a slope and clutch it out then my motor will crank, but only a bit. Maybe put in on a stand in gear and try to turn the wheel by hand?

6ix7even5ive
02-21-10, 15:03
nope man, cant budge the tyre, unless in Neutral or on clutch.

I am 100% certain tha the motor seized up (but I so dearly hope that I'm wrong)

What causes the motor to seize?
I just got it back from the dealers (150kms ago). they repaired it after a minor drop. Replaced engine covers etc. When I collected the bike - they told me:"the bike is smoking but it will clear. The smoke is only from oil that got to the engine and exhaust"

now Im sitting with a useless bike because of a seized engine.
what am I to do guys?

PLEASE help!?

Spewmonkey
02-21-10, 15:10
Ok thanks, Air.

First of all: I dont know much about engines and bikes.

heres what I tried:
1. Starting the bike normally has these symptoms:

everything is fine at first (lights, lap of dials, normal sounds etc)
when I turn the key, all lights go dead, while nothing else happens (almost like the starter drains all power from the battery)

2. I also tried releasing the clutch while pushing the bike very slowly:

turn ignition - all is as normal, lights, dials, everything.
put bike in 1st gear
pull clutch in
push bike slowly and release clutch

normally this would cause the engine to turn over one or 2 strokes, and normally youd hear the distinctive 3 cylinder sound for that stroke or 2.

on my bike: nothing! she pulls the bike to an immediate standstill while locking up the back wheel. This made me think that the engine is stuck ie. seized.??

Please Please help, my pride and joy is dead.
A friend dropped her at 30km/h - the dealers fixed her up, and 150kms after the repair, this is the symptoms? Maybe I should start a new thread?

Thanks Guys.



Pull the spark plugs and try the starter again; i've seen bikes get water in one of the cylinders and not crank.


Try this same drill but in second or third gear with the plugs out at first.

6ix7even5ive
02-21-10, 15:20
ok guys, maybe I should give more details. its just such a long story.
but heres the short version:

I was going on the highway in 6th gear.

first the engine started to sound SLIGHTLY different - almost like the intake was pulling air more agressively (if that makes sense?)
next I felt loss of power
I did what I thought was the most natural in that setup - I pulled in the clutch. - The bile died on me (While I was travelling at 120km/h)
I thought that by just letting go of the clutch shell start again. I was wrong
She locked up the back wheel at 100km/h (about 60 mph)
so I stopped and towed her home.
Now I need to figure out what to do?
ANY ideas?

MGFChapin
02-21-10, 16:57
Yeah sounds like a seized engine to me. A buddy of mine had that happen twice to his bike, the first time, someone put sugar in his oil filler cap. It caramelized and froze everything up, but we were able to peel most of it out and drain the rest in the oil, bike ran great afterward. A few months later, he came to me with the same problem, but this time someone had put salt in the filler cap and in his gas tank. Totally wreaked havoc, corrosion everywhere, engine isn't even remotely salvageable. Take a peek in your filler cap, see if you find any rust or unusual corrosion. Otherwise, drain the oil through a sifter and see what comes out.

[FLUX]
02-21-10, 17:32
Sounds like it could be a flat battery to me, caused by a dead reg/rec.

If you're going to roll-start it, put it into 3rd gear. 1st and 2nd will cause a compression lock-up every time and the rear tyre will just skid, especially if the tyre is still "cold", and the road is cool.

Alternately, go take the battery and get it charged. It will still have enough charge to drive the lights and instruments.

That would be my first guess. The problem is that the reg/rec goes on the blink, and the bike then runs off the battery, and then starts to sound funny, and lose power, and then just dies.

The lock-up in 6th at 60mph does sound a bit worrying though, I do admit, but try charge the battery first, or jumping it.

ukmarine1
02-21-10, 18:54
+1 on that too more probable

air_odie
02-21-10, 19:37
id do the following

1 charge battery overnight
2. check oil level and see if anything extra floating in it
3. next day check batt voltage
4. look for the regulator rectifier thread on the forum CHECK ALL OF EM
5. if not r/r and no start, then take off tank, and air box, and tb's then useing a 12v battery check starter
6. if starter rolls suspect dead motor

HOWEVER BEFORE TRYING ANY OF THIS CALL DEALER THAT SERVICED BIKE AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY

GOOD LUCK MAN!!

lukemillar
02-21-10, 21:39
Yeah sounds like a seized engine to me. A buddy of mine had that happen twice to his bike, the first time, someone put sugar in his oil filler cap. It caramelized and froze everything up, but we were able to peel most of it out and drain the rest in the oil, bike ran great afterward. A few months later, he came to me with the same problem, but this time someone had put salt in the filler cap and in his gas tank. Totally wreaked havoc, corrosion everywhere, engine isn't even remotely salvageable. Take a peek in your filler cap, see if you find any rust or unusual corrosion. Otherwise, drain the oil through a sifter and see what comes out.

:whawhat: Sounds like he sure has pissed someone off!?

6ix7even5ive
02-22-10, 01:08
thanks people.

I did phone the dealer the moment the bike broke down, but that was 10pm at night.

The very next day they wanted to come by my house and collect the bike. There was nobody home, so I still have the bike with me.

I dont want to take the bike back, cause they just gonna cover their tracks and then say that its normal engine failure. F*ck!

Ive put all this in a mail to the insurance, and they said that they wont pay out till im happy! Ill do some tests and let you guys know what happens.

Do you guys think the smoke is normal? How did oil end up in the motor AND exhaust? Is that possible at such a low speed drop?

Thanks!

Gnardog
02-22-10, 01:56
Having grenaded three motors in my day, two of which were in my 675, I am somewhat familiar with engine failures. This does not seem like an engine failure to me; seems like electrical. A seized motor does not happen spontaneously, it happens after building up serious bearing shavings around the mains or if there is heavy corrosion after sitting for too long without running. My motors blowing up were an unmistakable cacophony reminiscent of pouring a bag of gravel, glass and steel ball bearings in a wildly rattling/loose garbage disposal; if you didn't hear that at speed, you probably didn't spin a bearing.

A bad battery turned out to be the gremlin in a pretty baffling electrical issue I was having some time ago. Also, it is untrue that the 675 is not bump-startable, however, if the ecu will not run the motor, bumping it will not start it. What I would do is take off the cam chain cover and try and crank the engine by the (I think 21mm[?]) nut you see in there as per the service manual instructions. The highway shutoff you describe sounds like the engine shutting off, but the tire was (at least initially) turning the motor over, resulting in you hearing it suck air, but not fire, though it still makes an engine-esque noise, much like you hear the motor make whilst bumpstarting before it comes to life, since the motor is effectively a glorified airpump. When you pulled in the clutch, the now non turning motor instantly went to zero RPM, then you dropped the clutch, the back torque of which to increase from 0-8000 RPM will easily over power and lock up the rear tire.

Try turning over the engine manually, my bet is that you will be pleasantly surprised, then tackle the electrical, which, in my opinion is more of a nightmare, simply because electrical is almost as black-magic to me as suspension tuning; motors are mechanical and predictable. Probably needs a new battery or a new relay, also check all fuses for soundness. Also, put gas in it, you never know.

And BTW, I probably have whatever part you need to fix this in my thread about parting out my bike. (insert appropriate thumbs up, sunglass wearing emoticon)

~Dylan

6ix7even5ive
02-22-10, 05:51
Ok, so heres the latest:

This morning, I park my car next to the Daytona, and connect the jumpers cables.

1. I turn the key: all good
2. I press the start and the motor sort of struggles, but makes two or three cycles before stopping.

Does this mean that the motor is in deed not seized up? I sure hope so.

Please give me your thoughts.

[FLUX]
02-22-10, 06:15
If it turns, it's not seized. You've just confirmed though that the starter motor is fine, and the reg/rec is fried, or the battery is dead, or both.

Disconnect the bike's battery entirely, and try jumping it direct from a different battery (car or bike battery doesn't matter).

I suspect that your reg-rec is fried, the battery has drained so much that one of its cells has collapsed (headlights and instruments will still work even in this case), but it's shorting out the jump charge from your car battery, and thereby preventing enough charge from reaching the starter motor to fire the bike up.

Pull the stock battery out, and try again.

The bike's battery killing itself from draining too far after the reg-rec has died is a fairly common event.

If the bike doesn't fire with the stock battery removed, then something else is also wrong. I would suggest that the crankshaft position sensor may be on the blink, but I would only look at that AFTER confirming that the bike doesn't start with the stock battery removed.

6ix7even5ive
02-22-10, 06:24
Thanks Flux.

Ill pull out the battery and try it with another bat. hopefully it starts.

Also went to a bike dealer this morning and the guy there was very helpful. he suggested that I replace the regulator with a new one (I think from the 09 model) and then mount it somewhere where it wont be as exposed to heat as before. (like under the seat)

Will try that and see what it does.

I still dont understand how the wheel locked up at 60MPH?

oh well.

lukemillar
02-22-10, 16:25
I still dont understand how the wheel locked up at 60MPH?

If the engine cuts out suddenly at speed, and you don't pull the clutch in then it could lock the back wheel. Like changing down to 1st when travelling at higher speeds, can instantly lock the back wheel. Think off it as really extreme engine braking!

Until you diagnose it, I wouldn't keep trying to start it. Take the plugs out and turn the motor by hand if needs be. At least then you can determine if it has seized or not, without causing further damage if it has.

6ix7even5ive
02-22-10, 16:47
ive decided to quit screwing around and have the dealers (the guys who screwed it up in the first place) collect it and diagnose the problem.

Im concerned that they are going to try and cover their tracks, but theres not much else i can do.

Wish me luck.

tooblekain
02-22-10, 17:07
Yeah sounds like a seized engine to me. A buddy of mine had that happen twice to his bike, the first time, someone put sugar in his oil filler cap. It caramelized and froze everything up, but we were able to peel most of it out and drain the rest in the oil, bike ran great afterward. A few months later, he came to me with the same problem, but this time someone had put salt in the filler cap and in his gas tank. Totally wreaked havoc, corrosion everywhere, engine isn't even remotely salvageable. Take a peek in your filler cap, see if you find any rust or unusual corrosion. Otherwise, drain the oil through a sifter and see what comes out.

Dude, that guy must have enemies!!! A wise safety measure would have been to safety wire his oil filler cap and dipstick. The only way then to access would be to cut the wire, which would be a tell-tale sign someone ****ed with your bike.

MGFChapin
02-22-10, 18:41
Dude, that guy must have enemies!!! A wise safety measure would have been to safety wire his oil filler cap and dipstick. The only way then to access would be to cut the wire, which would be a tell-tale sign someone ****ed with your bike.
Well it's too late now, engine is totally ****ed. He needs a new engine or new bike.

qweesy
02-22-10, 23:12
check this man I had a seized starter

Starter Problems/Starter Relay? /EMS Main Relay adjusting TB's Help! - Triumph675.Net Forums

Spewmonkey
02-23-10, 00:01
Dude, that guy must have enemies!!! A wise safety measure would have been to safety wire his oil filler cap and dipstick. The only way then to access would be to cut the wire, which would be a tell-tale sign someone ****ed with your bike.
Didn't Mythbusters bust this???? It's not on their list but Bleach in the oil is!! OMG THAT WORKS!!!
http://mythbustersresults.com/episode15

6ix7even5ive
02-23-10, 16:38
UPDATE:

the dealer phoned me today just before closing time and said that they have started poking around.

say that they suspected more oil in the head, but found none.
also suspected a hydraulic lock but was wrong.

now the suspect that it could be a bent ring or a "dropped valve"??? and they want me to get permission from insurance to carry on with the troubleshooting.

I dont like the way this is going or the way it sounds, but i'll speak to insurance in the morning and hear what they say.

is any dealer to be trusted?

MGFChapin
02-23-10, 16:41
Is the bike still under warranty? A dropped valve should fall under the "Hey, Triumph, you gave me a shitty motor, give me a new one!" category.

6ix7even5ive
02-23-10, 16:47
unfortunately its a 06 model.

but im still pissed that this happens 150 kays after they fixed the bike up. im not convinced that it isnt due to something they did or didnt do.

what exactly is a dropped valve and what causes it?

MGFChapin
02-23-10, 16:53
Well since it's no longer covered by warranty anyway and you don't seem to trust this dealer, see if you can find a private shop to take a look at it. Would your insurance be willing to cover work done at a non-dealer?

6ix7even5ive
02-23-10, 17:01
Would your insurance be willing to cover work done at a non-dealer?

Work done at a non dealer wont be a problem they actually told me that taking it to the dealer wasnt the best idea in the first place.

i dont think insurance covers dropped valves, or any engine damage for that matter. do they?

MGFChapin
02-23-10, 17:04
Work done at a non dealer wont be a problem they actually told me that taking it to the dealer wasnt the best idea in the first place.

i dont think insurance covers dropped valves, or any engine damage for that matter. do they?
No, I don't imagine they would. I'm just curious why the dealer would want to ask insurance to delve deeper? The reason a private shop would be good is they could tell if the dealer messed something up, in which case you can try to get them to pay for it.

qweesy
02-23-10, 20:18
unfortunately its a 06 model.

but im still pissed that this happens 150 kays after they fixed the bike up. im not convinced that it isnt due to something they did or didnt do.

what exactly is a dropped valve and what causes it?

Dropped valve = A situation where the rising piston hits a valve which has become dislodged or open at the wrong time.

1.)were your cams aligned ?
2.)did the dealer adjust the valves?
3.)How many miles on the bike?
4.) do you have stock or manual TCT? (tensioner)
5.) Bent valve? you over rev or dog the *****?

6ix7even5ive
02-24-10, 01:53
Thanks for the responses guys.

Dropped valve = A situation where the rising piston hits a valve which has become dislodged or open at the wrong time.

1.)were your cams aligned ?
2.)did the dealer adjust the valves?
3.)How many miles on the bike?
4.) do you have stock or manual TCT? (tensioner)
5.) Bent valve? you over rev or dog the *****?

1. I dont know if cams were aligned - how can i check?
2. The dealer could have adjusted the valves about 2000kilos back (when the did the 30 000 service)
3. bike is on 32 000 kilos, but never been raced - used for daily commuting.
4. I have no idea, but think everything on the bike is stock.
5. never over rev the engine, aint neccesary. besides i hit the rev limiter once and hated the feeling, so never again.
what does dog mean?

can a valve become dislodged from impact of an accident?

thanks!

MGFChapin
02-24-10, 02:05
It's possible they messed up the cam timing when they adjusted the valves, but if you put on 2000 km after that you should've noticed a big difference in performance and noise. You can check if they're off by going to step 5 in this how to: How To: Measure Valve Clearances - Triumph675.Net Forums and checking the camshaft sprockets' timing marks. If they're not aligned, the dealer screwed up and I would argue they owe you an engine.

Remind me, did you buy the bike new? If you bent a valve or messed up cam timing from an accident, it would have to be a pretty damn big accident. How bad was it?

6ix7even5ive
02-24-10, 02:11
problem is: the bike ius at the dealer now. so they will just align camshaft sprockets to dodge the blame.

i bought the bike 2nd hand, but have had it for 20 000k's since - no problem.

the accedent: im not sure, as it wasnt me that dropped it. was my friend, and I wanst near, so I have no idea.

sheizer.

mrkotter
02-24-10, 02:26
Taking into consideration that I can only go by what is presented in this thread I'm still not convinced there is a problem with the engine especially after this post.

Ok, so heres the latest:

This morning, I park my car next to the Daytona, and connect the jumpers cables.

1. I turn the key: all good
2. I press the start and the motor sort of struggles, but makes two or three cycles before stopping.

Does this mean that the motor is in deed not seized up? I sure hope so.

Please give me your thoughts.

If the engine cranked I don't think its an engine problem. More than likely an electrical one.

In relation to accident and the proximity of this problem, just because two events occur close together do not mean they are related. They may be related but they may not.

Before you or any mechanic start pulling an engine part and rack up an enormous labour bill I would investigate more basic problems. At the very least you can eliminate them from the list of probabilities, which will get you closer to the source of the problem or you can feel ok about pulling an engine apart. Batteries do stuff up and this bike is known for destroying the stock r/r; sometimes even the stator.

EDIT: Mechanics can sometimes be stupid and/or lazy and you have your doubts about this one. So they may not check the basics or may even want to rack up a large bill. I hate saying it, but sometimes it does happen. I would suggest going somewhere else that you trust. There must be somewhere in your town that people recommend.

6ix7even5ive
06-25-10, 09:40
Getting the bike back from the dealers tomorrow. Still havent done anything to it. Leagal battle rages on.

After reading through these posts again, you guys have convinced me that its prolly not a seized engine. (Dale - didnt see your post at first - only now - it makes lotta sense, thanks)

so the bike will be going to another Triumph agent tomorrow, and all im gonna tell them is: "bike wont start, please check it out"

Thanks for your help guys - youre great.

IanRR
06-27-10, 23:26
Ohhhh dear..... Another 675 engine fail.

I just took delivery for the parts to rebuild my engine.... 850!! plus labour on top. The joys of Triumph.

Back to Honda I think!

6ix7even5ive
06-28-10, 06:23
well the bike is at the dealers now, and they are having a look to find the problem. hopefully it wont be the motor but only the R/R.